Disputing Baliff Fees

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Lyndskg
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#1 Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Lyndskg » 17 May 2017 11:05

Morning,

I will try and keep this brief. I am currently fighting the fees a
Enforcement office is charging us.

Back in 2016 I owed some outstanding childcare fees. To cut a very long story short we didn't agree with the fees and refused to pay the amount until the bill was corrected. This ended up in the owner of the nursery
taking court action again us. Looking back I do wish I had just paid the fees and disputed the amount after but we struggle to make ends meet anyway and did not have the money to pay this back in full at the time. We paid
the judgement debt back in 2016 and now the enforcement office is chasing us for their fees which are a whopping £3600. Making the debt over £5000.

After doing some research I asked them to send me a breakdown of costs and any receipts to back these stages up.

I did get sent a breakdown of fees but no receipts:


FEE BREAKDOWN YOU SENT US:

Judgment Debt £3,242.79

Judgment Costs £307.00

Credits £0.00

Execution Costs £111.75

Interest charged to date £282.49

Daily interest charge £0.80



Date Name Amount

07-03-2016 Compliance Stage Fee £75.00

05-04-2016 *First Enforcement Stage Fee £398.00

13-04-2016 *Second Enforcement Stage Fee £495.00

15-04-2016 *Sale or Disposal Stage Fee £801.00

Total VAT 353.80

We paid the nursery debt of £2600 back in May 2016 and since this breakdown we have paid the judgement costs, the first, second and third stage of baliff action.

We have now sent a complaint letter to the baliff company asking them to look at and correct any fees that are wrong. Which they are refusing to do, saying they are correct and sending someone to collect goods from my house.

I have worked out that the first stage fee is calculated wrong and I also didn't think the baliff company could charge VAT if the 'Creditor' is VAT
registered? Or am I wrong?

Also I have since found out that the Writ of control expired 15th March 2017. Does this mean they have no legal right to come to our house and take goods? If they did turn up and the Writ has expired what rights do they
have to enforce this action?

Any help and legal advise would be much appreciated as I want to know where I stand with this now and if I need to pay anything I haven't already.

Thanks you

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Schedule 12
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#2 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 17 May 2017 13:45

If the creditor is VAT registered, then the creditor reclaims the VAT element of the fees. When the bailiff charges the VAT to the debtor as well, then he is receiving the VAT twice. You can reclaim it by bringing a court action in the small claims track and give the HMRC advisory in evidence.

I wouldn't complain to the bailiff company or any other company. They will mess you about. Just take the shortest route to remedy the problem.

Once the writ has lapsed 6 years, it becomes unenforceable, section 24 of the Limitation Act 1980.

When the judgment debt was paid, and provided the bailiff did not take and sell any goods, the enforcement power ceases under paragraph 6 (3) (a) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

If you paid the bailiffs fees in May 2016, you might well have some redress if the enforcement action is not compliant. Here is a checklist:

http://beatthebailiffs.org/Stop-a-high- ... ficer.html
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Lyndskg
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Joined: 17 May 2017 10:12

#3 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Lyndskg » 17 May 2017 16:18

Thank you for your reply.

We paid the nursery fees we owed in May 2016 and paid the enforcement stage fees about a month ago.

Looking at the breakdown of fees is there any other cost we are meant to have paid?

No one has even been in our house/no goods taken.

We have paid a total of £2600 in 2016 + £1235.21 in 2017.

Is there anyway I can find out if the nursery is VAT registered?

So if the enforcement has ceased as we have paid back the judgement debt does this mean they can't come knocking at our door legally? They have been phoning us everyday, twice a day from diverted numbers and threatening that someone is coming to our house and can take what the want and there is nothing that we can do about it.

They have also refused to show receipt for the other fees they are trying to charge us.

Could I also ask what execution costs are?

Many thanks

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#4 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 17 May 2017 16:41

Ring them up and ask for their VAT number, if there is none then there is no VAT.

VAT only applies to the costs of taking control of goods. It doesn't apply to "fees", and you can reclaim them in the small claims track from the creditor.

The execution costs is a two part statutory charge. Half of it is the transfer up application fee and the other is the court fee. The bailiff and creditor do not gain anything from it. They stand to lose that money if the writ is never paid.

If the bailiff is pestering you about fees, then consider having a detailed assessment hearing. You need an expert to help you, but this article gives a skeleton of the procedure. http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/da.html I always use solicitors for this because the creditor ends up paying their fees.


If the disputed fees of costs are not in the remit of a detailed assessment hearing, then I reclaim them in the small claims track.
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Lyndskg
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#5 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Lyndskg » 18 May 2017 17:23

Hi Jason,

I have since taken my case to court for a detailed assessment of fees.

I am disputing the Interest charged, the Sale and Disposel stage fee of £801, the VAT and the other fee totalling £2300 still.

I have had notice that this is going to a hearing and want to be totally prepared.

I am currently preparing another supporting document where I show I have also been charged a card fee and I have done a search for the company on FCA and there are no search result showing.

Could I also ask if the enforcement office posted a letter through our door does this automatically incur the Sale and Disposel fee or does this only kick in if they get in and take goods.

Many thanks

Lyndskg

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#6 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 18 May 2017 18:05

I have not seen your detailed assessment witness statement, so its difficult for me to advise. Drafting detailed assessments is not a service offered for free. Costs are recovered from the other side. I only give free guidance on it.

Posting a letter does not attract the sale stage fee. That only has effect AFTER the bailiff has taken control of goods in the meaning of one of the four steps prescribed in paragraph 13 (1) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007. AND, the bailiff must start the process of removing the controlled goods to the place of sale (not the place of storage).

For the definitive guide, the law is regulation 5(1)(c) of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014, which states:

  • the sale or disposal stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the property for the purpose of transporting goods to the place of sale, or from commencing preparation for sale if the sale is to be held on the premises, until the completion of the sale or disposal (including application of the proceeds and provision of the information required by regulation 14).
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Lyndskg
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#7 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Lyndskg » 18 May 2017 19:22

Hi Jason,

Please can you tell me how much it would cost for me to get this advise and detailed assessment done with you?

Many thanks

Lyndsey

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#8 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 19 May 2017 19:59

I'll speak with you tomorrow. Been out of action today.
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Genie09
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#9 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Genie09 » 21 Nov 2017 23:42

Help please!

I had three separate notice of enforcement 2014, 2015 for council tax arrears and subsequent bailiff letters.
The council tax outstanding has however all been paid in full since April 2016.
Since moving from the initial address that had the enforcements apply I am suddenly receiving notices with threats of anpr vehicle removal from the same bailiffs. I have a breakdown and they list the council tax outstanding ( it's not its paid in full?) and their fees for recovery of debt. They have been informed by letter in 2016 that the debt had been paid to council in full.
I am concerned they have my new address so phoned the council to check indeed that the council tax owing is recorded as paid in full which it is. I then asked them to order the bailiffs to stop pursuing me for payment which they have ignored.
I am about to make a formal written complaint to the council and cc the bailiffs but I have questions:
1) is the bailiff entitled to pursue me for their 'charges' of 3 separate notices but all at old address.-I thought that the court could grant them to chase for the outstanding council tax but their fees are a civil matter is this correct?
2) How do I insist that the Council instruct them to stop chasing me ( 3 letters in last 4 days!!) as getting very annoyed now.
3) If the bailiffs do continue and for example take my vehicle is this legal as just chasing for their fees?

Any advice would be gratefully received as struggling to find if I am still liable for their outrageous demanded costs?

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#10 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 22 Nov 2017 12:25

Genie09 wrote:
21 Nov 2017 23:42
Help please!

I had three separate notice of enforcement 2014, 2015 for council tax arrears and subsequent bailiff letters.
The council tax outstanding has however all been paid in full since April 2016.
Since moving from the initial address that had the enforcements apply I am suddenly receiving notices with threats of anpr vehicle removal from the same bailiffs.
Its a generic template letter. It's not normally used for council tax. The bailiff company practices ANPR clamping and this is normally done for the enforcement of traffic debts. This is probably Newlyn or Marston because both companies use ANPR in their modus operandi.




I have a breakdown and they list the council tax outstanding ( it's not its paid in full?) and their fees for recovery of debt. They have been informed by letter in 2016 that the debt had been paid to council in full.
The enforcement power has ended. Paragraph 6(3) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.



I am concerned they have my new address so phoned the council to check indeed that the council tax owing is recorded as paid in full which it is. I then asked them to order the bailiffs to stop pursuing me for payment which they have ignored.
The bailiff company is trying to get fees from you by pretending there is an enforcement power. It's form of fraud.



I am about to make a formal written complaint to the council and cc the bailiffs but I have questions:
I would not bother with a formal complaint. you will be fobbed off with excuses saying the bailiff is "acting within its rights to recover their fees".. That is wrong advice. This article explains the legal position: http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/Po ... emand.html




1) is the bailiff entitled to pursue me for their 'charges' of 3 separate notices but all at old address.-I thought that the court could grant them to chase for the outstanding council tax but their fees are a civil matter is this correct?
Correct. The liability order only carried an enforcement power to recover the council tax specified on it and the costs of taking and selling the debtors goods to pay the debt. In your case, the bailiff has no taken control of any goods, therefore, the bailiff has not paid any costs regarding taking and selling your goods.



2) How do I insist that the Council instruct them to stop chasing me ( 3 letters in last 4 days!!) as getting very annoyed now.

Stop writing. It will only exhaust your energy. Just park the matter and do not open the door.

3) If the bailiffs do continue and for example take my vehicle is this legal as just chasing for their fees?
No they can't legally speaking, but a gung-ho bailiff will probably try it.


Any advice would be gratefully received as struggling to find if I am still liable for their outrageous demanded costs?
Do not respond to it. Keep all evidence the council tax is paid. Your liability ends there. If anyone puts you in fear in your own home without lawful excuse then report this to police.
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Genie09
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#11 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Genie09 » 22 Nov 2017 17:07

wow thankyou so much for your replies!
I will be sure to keep the door shut and not pay them a penny!
It was Penham Excell and they must have wasted a forest in letters if this is usual behaviour, I am more concerned for my elderly mother who is now scared the debt collectors will come to her door but I will share this information with her which will hopefully put her mind at rest.

update- I have had an email tesponse from penham stating that their fees are legal and due paying so my attempt now is to force the council to back down and inform the bailiffs that their attrmpts to collect payment will be futile.

Would I be best to write to the council CEO or just contact the revenues section? they were particularly unhelpful when I insisted a year ago that the debt was paid in full to them and NOT their appointed bailiffs!

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#12 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 22 Nov 2017 20:04

The matter is closed as far as you and the council is concerned. Leave it there.
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#13 Re: Disputing Baliff Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 22 Nov 2017 20:27

:xmas_confused: The matter is closed as far as you and the council is concerned. Leave it there.
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