Public House Specific Bailiff Info

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Chris_Lindesay
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#1 Public House Specific Bailiff Info

Post by Chris_Lindesay » 29 Dec 2013 12:07

Hi there - it is a real pleasure to have found somewhere that is offering specific help in this area.
I am associated with a Facebook group called "Licensees Supporting Licensees" which is trying to reach out and help Public House Licensees in particular those that have been caught in the Pub-Co Tied house Trap.

I imagine you might have dealt with a few Pub situations in the past but have not been able to find direct references in the few minutes I have poked around the forum.

Our research suggests that what we call in the trade "Pub-Co Churn" which is in effect a business failing and being rapidly replaced by new management / tenant is happening about 50 times per week in the UK right now and after a poor year we are braced for a massive hike in these numbers in the coming weeks.

In many situations as a Pub approaches the "Churn" the tenants will need to deal with Bailiffs from Utilities, HMRC, Local Council, and indeed their own Pub-Co. In addition a number of insolvency Practitioners get introduced as the Tenants appeal for help from their Pub-Co and what help is given comes at the cost of full open-book accounting and what seems to be Commercial Rape.

What we are looking for is a resource which can beef up our own slightly hit and miss services to cope with the firestorm to come.

I see from your companion site there is a wealth of case-law and so on to support and govern the activities of Bailiffs generally but it would be very helpful if we could get some assistance in the specific case of a Public House where the concept of "Granting and Denying access", "Walking Possession", demanding payment of disputed debt and so on gets quite complicated when the Pub is by definition granting access to the Public areas, where the fixtures and fittings could be "Professional tools" and where, quite frequently, regular customers can be cajoled into lending a distressed publican money on the spot to make a down payment to a Bailiff and so on.

I think most of the standard stuff works but is it possible to put a notice on the property denying Bailiffs access while allowing access to the general public?

I am sure if we can agree to work together we might be able to develop a useful set of Public House specific tools to be made available to our "constituency", it needs to be pretty easy to use and accessible as quite frequently we first hear of the problem shortly after a Bailiff has called or while he is still on the premises.

The main issue is that a Public House is regarded by the law as a Commercial operator and Commercial Law assumes that both parties have equal access to information and resources, there are very few of the Consumer protections available in this area. However the Public House operators in fact are almost indistinguishable from "Ordinary People" who have a fundamental belief in honesty, decency and fair-play - Sadly in the case of Pub-Cos this is cynically exploited causing a good deal of misery and wretchedness along the way.

I hope we might be able to work together to achieve something here.

Cheers

Chris Lindesay

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Schedule 12
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#2 Re: Public House Specific Bailiff Info

Post by Schedule 12 » 29 Dec 2013 16:57

Chris_Lindesay wrote:
I think most of the standard stuff works but is it possible to put a notice on the property denying Bailiffs access while allowing access to the general public?
You can still use a notice modified to specifically exclude "any person seeking a money transfer or article from anyone at these premises" is denied an implied right of access. That excludes street traders as well as debt collectors and bailiffs. It can be deployed all pubs and trade premises visited by members of the public.

It worked for a pub against a High Court Enforcement Officer whose creditor was billed a large sum for disruption to a public house business and executing a writ against a named Ltd company at a public house premises operated as a sole trader- which meant the contents were protected goods and a slot machine belonging to a third party company renting carpet space for gaming machine use. Damages were awarded because of the notice but the gaming machine owners solicitor claimed on the enforcement agents liability insurance for the replacement machine and onboard cash and interfering with a tamper alarm installed on a gaming machine.
it needs to be pretty easy to use and accessible as quite frequently we first hear of the problem shortly after a Bailiff has called or while he is still on the premises.
With a notice displayed, any person saying he is executing a writ or warrant can be removed from the premises by force and if the bailiff resists then he commits breach of the peace and it is the bailiff the police must arrest. Foulkes -v- Chief Constable of Merseyside Police; CA 9-Jun-1998.


The main issue is that a Public House is regarded by the law as a Commercial operator and Commercial Law assumes that both parties have equal access to information and resources, there are very few of the Consumer protections available in this area. However the Public House operators in fact are almost indistinguishable from "Ordinary People" who have a fundamental belief in honesty, decency and fair-play - Sadly in the case of Pub-Cos this is cynically exploited causing a good deal of misery and wretchedness along the way.
The problem can easily be solved using a notice as described as above.

I accept that bailiff companies and their internet sympathisers disagree, but there is good authority it works. It doesn't matter if the police don't know the law, that only means the police force pays damages and the attending officers need to undergo some retraining in the case of Foulkes v chief constable Merseyside.

I hope we might be able to work together to achieve something here.

Cheers

Chris Lindesay
I'm happy to answer any specific questions, we are well connected with the right people in civil enforcement redress and compliance.
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Author: dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk

Chris_Lindesay
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#3 Re: Public House Specific Bailiff Info

Post by Chris_Lindesay » 29 Dec 2013 17:08

Great stuff
I will post a summary of this into LSL and direct folk with specific problems from there your way. It is great to get access to some authority on this dimly lit corner of the industry.

We have our hands full dealing with the Monster Zombie PubCos .

Thanks very much

Chris

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#4 Re: Public House Specific Bailiff Info

Post by Schedule 12 » 29 Dec 2013 17:19

The notice doesn't work on an HMRC agent provided the agent is not a company or contractor, there is case law but I don't want to give that out on the forums because there is evidence the bailiffs companies are unaware of it, and they might try to misconstrue it to apply to companies working for HMRC when it only applies to civil servant enforcement agents.

I would try and get PubWatch to produce a briefing note and a branded notice to be used by member licensees to use at their premises. That way, if a licensee gets trouble then he can throw them out and if the police are called, hand them the riot act on an A4 in vue of the CCTV system.

The following is a notice handed to a police officer used in court fines enforcement preventing the officer pretending not to know the law. http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/fr ... tFines.pdf the result is the police officers quickly leave then the bailiff is thrown off the premises.

I see no reason why a trade premises or public house version cannot be created based on current legislation.
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Chris_Lindesay
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#5 Re: Public House Specific Bailiff Info

Post by Chris_Lindesay » 29 Dec 2013 19:38

Thanks Amy or Jason whatever.

LSL is now drafting away incorporating your input and our special situation.

We might try to send a particular case your way who in between the "Punter pays £2K to make the bailiff go away" and "Bailiff will be back Friday for another £4k" I hope you can help her.

Cheers

Chris

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#6 Re: Public House Specific Bailiff Info

Post by Chris_Lindesay » 30 Dec 2013 09:44

Hi again there is a concern expressed that some of your prescriptions may be of use in other areas of debt but commercial rent or distress for rent rules are not going to be tackled by the current methods suggested.

Suggestion is
"Best advice is make sure nothing physical is in your name in the trading areas of the pub, get all the stock on unpaid invoices and f&f in name of third party who rents it back to you and keep residential parts locked off with a nameplate or sign fixed on the door saying private residential accommodation. Keep rental paperwork and unpaid stock invoices handy and show bailiff there is nothing to take.
Oh don't forget to hide car's in your name or get the V5 transfered to third parties."

While I am no expert in this area and hope never to need to be; I am conscious that any interaction between a pub operator with a struggling business and a bailiff seeking to collect funds for their client, whether commercial rent or anything else, and using high pressure techniques while the pub is trading is going to create a highly difficult situation for a Pub Operator whose business depends on providing a happy and welcoming atmosphere and experience for their clients.

I seek to get the best possible advice for these people by way of being prepared, possibly as suggested above, and also having the best possible tools ready and available to deploy to ensure as far as possible that the pub operators rights, such as they are are not trampled on by bulky men in brown coats and carrying clipboards.

I am hoping you can contribute to the building of these tools.

Chris_Lindesay
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#7 Re: Public House Specific Bailiff Info

Post by Chris_Lindesay » 30 Dec 2013 09:48

Can you help with this comment?

"Be very clear bailiff for rent rules are not executing warrants or writs they don't currently need one. The tribunal and enforcement act was meant to deal with this issue but the scheduled part never got assent so it seems."
HMG are proposing new bailiff act but it is not passed yet either.

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#8 Re: Public House Specific Bailiff Info

Post by Schedule 12 » 30 Dec 2013 10:34

I afraid that is true, bailiffs acting for the landlord do not need a warrant.

It's not a Bailiffs Act as such. The rules on the recovery of rent is regulated by the Distress for Rent Rules 1988. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988 ... tents/made

And the new Taking Control of Goods regulations coming into force next April 06 has further provisions under Part 7 for commercial rent arrears recovery which places additional responsibilities on landlords - here. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013 ... art/7/made

There are no other regulations to follow apart from revised fee regulations, but there are gremlins and conflicts with the 2003 Courts Act and 1980 Magistrates Courts Act that need to be addressed and parliamentary approval is being sought to repeal a number of sections. The Ministry of Justice thinks Q1 of 2014. They will issue a press release and I can forward it to you as soon as I have it.
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jumunjo
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#9 Re: Public House Specific Bailiff Info

Post by jumunjo » 14 Mar 2017 22:15

Hi

apologies for bringing up an old thread, however i see a missing link and wondered if there was ever a notice produced specifically for landlords?

Post#4 "The following is a notice handed to a police officer used in court fines enforcement preventing the officer pretending not to know the law. http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/fr ... tFines.pdf the result is the police officers quickly leave then the bailiff is thrown off the premises."
jasonDWB wrote:
29 Dec 2013 16:57
Chris_Lindesay wrote:
I think most of the standard stuff works but is it possible to put a notice on the property denying Bailiffs access while allowing access to the general public?
You can still use a notice modified to specifically exclude "any person seeking a money transfer or article from anyone at these premises" is denied an implied right of access. That excludes street traders as well as debt collectors and bailiffs. It can be deployed all pubs and trade premises visited by members of the public.

It worked for a pub against a High Court Enforcement Officer whose creditor was billed a large sum for disruption to a public house business and executing a writ against a named Ltd company at a public house premises operated as a sole trader- which meant the contents were protected goods and a slot machine belonging to a third party company renting carpet space for gaming machine use. Damages were awarded because of the notice but the gaming machine owners solicitor claimed on the enforcement agents liability insurance for the replacement machine and onboard cash and interfering with a tamper alarm installed on a gaming machine.
it needs to be pretty easy to use and accessible as quite frequently we first hear of the problem shortly after a Bailiff has called or while he is still on the premises.
With a notice displayed, any person saying he is executing a writ or warrant can be removed from the premises by force and if the bailiff resists then he commits breach of the peace and it is the bailiff the police must arrest. Foulkes -v- Chief Constable of Merseyside Police; CA 9-Jun-1998.


The main issue is that a Public House is regarded by the law as a Commercial operator and Commercial Law assumes that both parties have equal access to information and resources, there are very few of the Consumer protections available in this area. However the Public House operators in fact are almost indistinguishable from "Ordinary People" who have a fundamental belief in honesty, decency and fair-play - Sadly in the case of Pub-Cos this is cynically exploited causing a good deal of misery and wretchedness along the way.
The problem can easily be solved using a notice as described as above.

I accept that bailiff companies and their internet sympathisers disagree, but there is good authority it works. It doesn't matter if the police don't know the law, that only means the police force pays damages and the attending officers need to undergo some retraining in the case of Foulkes v chief constable Merseyside.

I hope we might be able to work together to achieve something here.

Cheers

Chris Lindesay
I'm happy to answer any specific questions, we are well connected with the right people in civil enforcement redress and compliance.

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