Baliffs have taken my works van - Returned & Won!

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peterabs
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#1 Baliffs have taken my works van - Returned & Won!

Post by peterabs » 17 Feb 2014 17:37

hi,
this morning at around 8.30am I had a knock at the door to find 2 men standing there threatening to cease my works van. After telling them they cannot take it as it was my means of work, they replied with abuse calling me scum for not paying my bills and telling me they will just come back in the middle of the night to take cease it if I do not let them take it. I phoned the police and my dad. The police said they would arrest me and my dad for breach of the peace unless I let them take the van. I explained it was my works vehicle, without it I cannot work, provide for my family, pay my rent or them. They told me that because my childs booster seat was in the van I use it for private use aswell so therefore they can and are taking it.

After emptying the van the police took my keys off me and handed them to the bailiffs, who then gave me some paperwork (form 55) and drove off in my van. I never signed any paperwork and have been told I have 5 days to appeal.

I called the solicitors shoe smith solicitors who instructed the bailiffs (burlington group) they advised me to fill out and expenditure form to try and make a payment arrangement. I did this and sent it back offering to make a small but affordable payment for the moment and each month in the future. After they received this I phoned them and they have rejected my offer. said I must pay the full debt within 5 days to get the van back.
Please help!
Peter

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#2 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by monkeynuts » 17 Feb 2014 17:54

I shall post up your documents for you as soon as I can :D
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#3 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by jasonDWB » 17 Feb 2014 18:08

The taking of the vehicle is illegal because it is used for your work as a self employed tradesman.

The law is Section 89 of the County Courts Act 1984

A definition of protected goods is available in Paragraphs 9(2) and 9(3) of Schedule 7 of the Courts Act 2003 and applies to the enforcement of High Court Writs and presuasive in claims involving other types of debts.

From April 06 2014, Regulation 4 of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 applies to all debts recovered by distrain on goods.

The police and the creditor are the parties jointly liable. The police liability is because they said you are breaching the peace by not handing the keys to your trade vehicle, and they can only assist an HCEO to prevent a breach of the peace. Here they crossed the line and assisted in illegal taking of a trade vehicle putting you out of a job.

You need to evaluate the cost of the loss of income per day and ask the police force the officers are attached and start a claim at court. You do the same claim against the creditor. Do not contact the HCEO. This article shows what you can claim. http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/ve ... trade.html

Run the High Court enforcement compliance check.

If you have access to the money Only as a last resort, this article explains how to deploy Pay & Reclaim by clearing the liability and reclaiming it through the courts or an ombudsman.
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#4 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by monkeynuts » 17 Feb 2014 18:39

This is the letter you need - get it off immediately
The Customer Care Department
[NAME OF HCEO COMPANY]
[ADDRESS1]
[ADDRESS2]
[ADDRESS3]
[POSTCODE]

[DATE]

BY POST AND BY EMAIL AND BY HAND
name@hceocompany.co.uk


Dear Sir/Madam,

Notice under Rule 17.2a of the Supreme Court Rules

I [NAME] residing at [ADDRESS AND POSTCODE] hereby give notice understanding that you or your company is commanded to collect a debt from my address and I confirm I am the lawful owner of the [GOODS/VEHICLE] and I give written notice they are protected goods because they are used for my employment business or vocation.

[This document is handed to you and a photograph of you standing outside reading it has just been taken as proof of delivery and I respectfully ask that you quietly leave the property].


Yours faithfully,



[YOUR NAME] (do not sign)
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#5 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 17 Feb 2014 19:45

Thanks for your help so far. I am not up to speed with the legal jargon and am not sure if the letter is supposed to be sent before they take your vehicle or after .... mines already been taken.

Peter

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#6 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by monkeynuts » 17 Feb 2014 19:57

Send it anyway - also send copy to the solicitors

I will post up the documents you send me in a while - just blanking them now
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#7 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by monkeynuts » 17 Feb 2014 22:36

Forms left by HCEO

Funny how on page 3 right under his signature it states about him being aware of tools of trade.....
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#8 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 17 Feb 2014 23:45

I know I stated that several times to the bailiffs and the police but they both said its doesn't count as I had a car seat in my van and they said as far as there concerned its not just for my work but for private use too. I have a Nissan navara which can only be insured under commercial insurance. So this is not a personal use vehicle as far as the law is concerned otherwise you could get domestic insurance too.

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#9 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by Mark1960 » 18 Feb 2014 00:16

peterabs wrote:I know I stated that several times to the bailiffs and the police but they both said its doesn't count as I had a car seat in my van and they said as far as there concerned its not just for my work but for private use too. I have a Nissan navara which can only be insured under commercial insurance. So this is not a personal use vehicle as far as the law is concerned otherwise you could get domestic insurance too.
I'm no expert and am only replying as a layman but could the car seat possibly have put in the van after being taken from another car? Is it not illegal to carry children in the front seat anyway? Simply having a child seat in a van is no proof that it is used for private use in any case. Coupled with your insurance policy, surely you've got to contest this?

Jason will advise better but loss of earnings here has to be taken into consideration

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#10 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 18 Feb 2014 00:37

I am trying to contest this but am really struggling as i'm new to all this, they've given me 5 days to appeal I have already tried to argue today and offer a monthly payment which has been refused. They tell me I can only have the van back if I make the payment in full. The van I use is a Nissan navara 4x4 so has back seats like a car would have I explained this to the police but the police took the keys off me and said if I don't give them my key they will arrest me for breach of the peace. So I handed my key to the police who then handed it to the bailiffs.

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#11 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by jasonDWB » 18 Feb 2014 00:40

A child's car seat and an insurance policy has no impact in what the trade vehicle is used for. It's a trade vehicle and you are a tradesman - it's as simple as that.

Loss of earnings are recovered from the creditor so you need to send an interim bill for costs and a periodical bill of losses each week until the claim is settled. You must keep your combined claim under £10,000 otherwise your opponents legal costs could be made against you if you claim is unsuccessful. We have a set of templates to issue a creditor with periodical costs.

You can also ask the police to pay your damages as well. Their remit it to protect the peace - nothing else. Saying that refusing to hand over your van keys is a breach of the peace is worthy of an investigation by the IPCC into the professional conduct of the officers. You must support your complaint against police officers with a SWORN statement of truth, otherwise the police will close ranks.
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#12 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 18 Feb 2014 00:49

I have the two police badge numbers, I have already logged a complaint and have been told they are calling me tomorrow.
Can you send me the templates to issue a creditor with periodical costs?

Thanks

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#13 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by jasonDWB » 18 Feb 2014 00:53

I'm a mobile user (ipad) and don't carry templates on board, but MN has them, there are two of them.
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#14 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 18 Feb 2014 00:57

thanks for all your help I will ask him for them and get them sent off asap

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#15 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by monkeynuts » 18 Feb 2014 01:03

peterabs wrote:thanks for all your help I will ask him for them and get them sent off asap
I'll post them up in morning foyer you!
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#16 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 18 Feb 2014 21:48

thanks for everyone's help on this cant thank you all enough for the help so far
this is the letter i'm sending to the bailiffs can anyone advise if this is ok?

The Appeals Department
Burlington Group
227-228 Strand
London
WC2R 1BE
18TH February 204
my email

Dear Sir/Madam,

Notice under Rule 17.2a of the Supreme Court Rules

I (my name) residing at (my address) hereby give notice understanding that you or your company is commanded to collect a debt from my address and I confirm I am the lawful owner of the Nissan Navara registration number **** and I give written notice they are protected goods because they are used for my employment business or vocation.
The taking of the vehicle is illegal because it is used for my work as a self employed tradesman.

The law is Section 89 of the County Courts Act 1984
A definition of protected goods is available in Paragraphs 9(2) and 9(3) of Schedule 7 of the Courts Act 2003 and applies to the enforcement of High Court Writs and persuasive in claims involving other types of debts.

From April 06 2014, Regulation 4 of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 applies to all debts recovered by distraint on goods.

I am demanding the vehicle back within 5 working days, you stated because it had a booster seat in the back of the van it was used as a personal vehicle. This is my works vehicle which I used to carry my tools, which where witnessed being removed by two police officers, neighbours and my father. If this was not a business vehicle it would not have been carrying these items. I have sought legal advice from a solicitor and from the citizens advice bureau who have both confirmed that regardless as to whether this was for both business and personal use, it is still my only means of income, without my vehicle you have forced me unemployed.

It states on your paperwork section 138(3A) of the supreme court acts 1981 follows-
“(3A) Every enforcement officer executing any writ of execution issued from the high court against the goods of any person may by virtue of it seize-
(a) Any of that persons goods except –
(i) Such tools, books, VEHICLES and other items of equipment as are necessary for use personally by him in his employment, business or vocation;
(ii) Such clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment and provisions as are necessary for satisfying the basic domestic needs of that person and his family; and
(b) Any money bank notes, bills of exchange, promissory notes, bonds, specialties or securities for money belonging to that person.
The police and the creditor are the parties jointly liable. The police liability is because they said I was breaching the peace by not handing the keys to my trade vehicle, and they can only assist an HCEO to prevent a breach of the peace. Here they crossed the line and assisted in illegal taking of a trade vehicle putting me out of a job.

By taking this vehicle you have broken the law. It also states in your paperwork that I should have signed it to give my permission and I did not. The police stole the key out of my hands and gave it to your bailiffs, therefore aided and abetted you in the theft of my works vehicle.

I

Yours faithfully,

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#17 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by jasonDWB » 18 Feb 2014 21:54

Copy needs to go to the creditor as well. They are liable for all your losses. And taking a working van is very expensive due to loss of income and damage to business reputation. Don't waste any time getting your claim filed at court, it sets a deadline otherwise the bailiff is not compelled to settle or return your van. You can charge the cost of a rental van to the refit or if you prefer.
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#18 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by monkeynuts » 19 Feb 2014 14:43

This is a slight amendment to the one you emailed me.

Anyone else any input? If not the get it off immediately!
The Appeals Department

Burlington Group

227-228 Strand

London

WC2R 1BE

18TH February 2014

By Post and Email







Dear Sir/Madam,


Notice under Rule 17.2a of the Supreme Court Rules


I xx residing at xx, Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire, xx hereby give notice understanding

that you or your company is commanded to collect a debt from my address and I confirm I am

the lawful owner of the Nissan Navara registration number Axxxxxx and I give written notice

they are protected goods because they are used for my employment business or vocation.


The taking of the vehicle is illegal because it is used for my work as a self-employed

tradesman.



The law is Section 89 of the County Courts Act 1984

A definition of protected goods is available in Paragraphs 9(2) and 9(3) of Schedule 7 of

the Courts Act 2003 and applies to the enforcement of High Court Writs and persuasive in

claims involving other types of debts.


But for clarification you also state this on your paperwork that was let with me:

Section 138(3A) of the supreme court acts 1981 follows-

“(3A) Every enforcement officer executing any writ of execution issued from the high court

against the goods of any person may by virtue of it seize-

(a) Any of that persons goods except –

(i) Such tools, books, VEHICLES and other items of equipment as are

necessary for use personally by him in his employment, business or vocation;

(ii) Such clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment and provisions

as are necessary for satisfying the basic domestic needs of that person and his family; and

(b) Any money bank notes, bills of exchange, promissory notes, bonds, specialties or

securities for money belonging to that person.


I am demanding the vehicle to be returned to my home address within 5 working days. This is

my works vehicle that I used to carry my tools, which where witnessed being removed by two

police officers, neighbours and my father. If this was not a business vehicle it would not

have been carrying these items. I have sought legal advice from a solicitor and from the

citizens advice bureau who have both confirmed that regardless as to whether this was for

both business and personal use, it is still my only means of income, without my vehicle you

have forced me unemployed.


(sign)
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#19 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by Mark1960 » 19 Feb 2014 15:08

I would not mention that last bit regarding the vehicle being used for personal use. I read of a case where a taxi was legitimately removed because it was proven that the owner used it for personal use as well. I'd maintain it is 100% used for business use.

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#20 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by jasonDWB » 19 Feb 2014 15:17

That might be the case of Toseland Bishop, but that only applies to goods being used by another person. Fortunately Toseland bishop no longer applies after April 06 because of regulation 4 of the taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 but in any event I got a bailiffs defence on a DWB client slung out using Paragraphs 9(2) and 9(3) of Schedule 7 of the Courts Act 2003.

Even as Mark says, I would follow his advice because an admission the taxi is used for private use could undermine your claim.
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#21 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 19 Feb 2014 23:31

Thanks for the revised appeal letter this has been sent on. I am now in the process of writing to the sergeant investigating the complaint I raised about the polices assistance in taking my van keys. Please take a look at the letter so far and advise if it can be improved and how to end it? The section that talks about the officer stating we are going to take your van now I have on video, I am not telling them this yet as if the officers deny it I can then trip them up and show the officers word doesn't count for anything. Is this recommended? Thanks again.

To .....

Here are the documents you asked for, the bailiffs did not give these to me, they gave them to my dad
which they should not have done. It states in the paperwork that they needed my signature to get my consent for the removal of my trade vehicle. Which I did not sign, therefore my trade vehicle was illegally taken without my consent.

The law is Section 89 of the County Courts Act 1984
A definition of protected goods is available in Paragraphs 9(2) and 9(3) of Schedule 7 of the Courts Act 2003 and applies to the enforcement of High Court Writs and persuasive in claims involving other types of debts.
From April 06 2014, Regulation 4 of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 applies to all debts recovered by distrain on goods.

PC-**** and PC-**** abused their powers and assisted in the theft of my trade vehicle. I phoned the police to assist me as I felt threatened and intimidated by the two bailiffs, who were calling me scum for not paying my debts. My wife and two children a 2 year old girl and a 6 year old boy were very upset and scared as the bailiffs were banging on the door and looking through the window with their faces pushed against the glass. I felt that PC-**** and PC-**** failed to do their job here as they didn’t deal with my original complaint. They were on the bailiff’s side as soon as they arrived on the scene. The police officers PC-**** and PC-**** said if I move my van or drive off I’d be arrested for theft even if I move it an inch. I have since found out this is not true as the only person who can report a vehicle as stolen is the registered keeper THIS IS ME. Therefore false information was given to me and my father. When I stated I am not giving my key to the bailiffs as this is a trade vehicle and this is not allowed to be taken, PC-**** and PC-**** said they will arrest me and my father for breach of the peace. Again we were not breaching the peace, we were not causing a disturbance, we were not being abusive or causing a scene. I was well within my rights to refuse the seizure of my trade vehicle as by law they can’t take anything that affects my ability to work. Without my trade vehicle I have been forced into unemployment.
It States in the bailiff’s paperwork form 55 part 3 section 138(3A) of the supreme court acts 1981 follows-

“(3A) every enforcement officer executing any writ of execution issued from the high court against the goods of any person may by virtue of it seize-
(a) Any of that persons goods except –
(i) Such tools, books, VEHICLES and other items of equipment as are necessary for use personally by him in his employment, business or vocation;
(ii) Such clothing, bedding, furniture, household equipment and provisions as are necessary for satisfying the basic domestic needs of that person and his family; and
(b) Any money bank notes, bills of exchange, promissory notes, bonds, specialties or securities for money belonging to that person.
This was pointed out to the police officers and bailiffs on several occasions. They ignored me.

The police officers PC-**** and PC-**** again told me that if I did not hand my key to the police officer I will be arrested for breach of the peace, the police officer then told me WE are going to take your key now and made me hand the key to police officer. I emptied my trade vehicle of the tools it was carrying which was witnessed by the police officers, my father and my neighbours, if it was not a trade vehicle it would not have been carrying these items. After the vehicle was emptied the police officer then handed my key to the bailiff . My father then repeated they cannot take the vehicle as stated in the paperwork, my dad then told the police you are supposed to uphold the law, he replied I am upholding the law I’m stopping a breach of the peace. He then went on to say WE are going to take your vehicle now so we can get on our way. The police officer had stated WE are taking your vehicle therefore crossing the line and assisting in the theft of my trade vehicle and forcing me unemployed. The police officers PC-**** and PC_**** abused their powers to enable them to move on with their day.

Police officers can only assist a HCEO/bailiff to prevent a breach of the peace and NOT assist the bailiffs in the removal of any items. The police officers PC-****and PC-**** assisted the bailiffs, the way the officer spoke and the wording he used made it look as though he was working for the bailiff company. I was told by the police officer I can appeal the decision and arrange a monthly repayment with the credit company to enable me to get my trade vehicle back. I have contacted the solicitors who refused my payment plan and told me they will be auctioning my trade vehicle in 5 days. I have written a letter to appeal and am waiting a response. If I do not get my trade vehicle back I will be seeking compensation for your officers negligence.

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#22 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by jasonDWB » 20 Feb 2014 08:25

Police like to say fraud is a civil matter see if you can design your complaint satisfy the criteria in this document - https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... raud-cases

Have you considered making an application for a stay of execution? Or even getting the writ set aside (for non compliant distress!) http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/St ... r-HCEO.htm
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#23 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 20 Feb 2014 12:09

thank and I did not no I could do that iv have just sent the N244 of to the courts as urgent so will hear back very soon
thanks for that
hear is the attachment to download the N244
so I will find out soon if the courts will put a stay on this and should get my van back
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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#24 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 20 Feb 2014 13:35

I just received a phone call from reading county courts asking me to attend a hearing on Monday 24/2/2014 regarding the N244 I sent them. They are contacting the bailiffs and telling them they can not dispose of/sell my van can anyone advise me as to what I should bring to court to make sure I beat the bastards!! I can take all paperwork so far received from the bailiffs and the emails from the solicitor refusing my payment offer. I can take my last years accounts to show that I am on a very low income. Any other Ideas will be gratefully received.

Thanks again

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#25 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by jasonDWB » 20 Feb 2014 13:43

It is not proper court procedure for the court service to telephone you and say you must attend a court hearing. The court must send you a N24 notice.

Take everything you think relevant. But crucially the grounds the PCN or it's enforcement is not valid or compliant with regulations. Run the compliance check and it will give you a list of points to support your grounds.
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#26 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by peterabs » 24 Feb 2014 23:00

Hi,

I would like to say a massive thank you, to everyone that has helped me. I went to Reading High Court today to appeal to the judge regarding the bailiffs taking my trade vehicle. The Judge was on my side from the moment the hearing started and ruled in my favour ordering the bailiffs to return my vehicle within 48 hours.

The bailiffs solicitors tried every trick in the book to win, but the judge shut them down and told them they should not have taken the vehicle and any evidence they tried to present was told was irrelevant. They tried to use this case as an example of cease of a trade vehicle Toseland building supplies VS bishop (t/a bishop(groundworks)) which is a case where bailiffs ceased a JCB digger the judge told them it was completely different and didn't give them the time of day. If anyone wants these notes let me know and I will post them.

Long story short we won and its thanks to everyone on this site, I wouldn't have known I could appeal directly to the courts or even had a leg to stand on if it wasn't for you so thankyou again!! As soon as I have sorted my life out and have some money spare I will be giving you a donation to help you to continue helping people like me!!

Kind Regards
Peter Abbott

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#27 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by Mark1960 » 24 Feb 2014 23:26

Fantastic news

Well done Peter :D

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#28 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by jasonDWB » 25 Feb 2014 00:20

All you need to do now is render your bill for interfering with a trade vehicle. Get out the calculator and start adding it all up and start your claim and get your money back so you can out this all behind you. This article explains what is recoverable from the creditor.

http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/ve ... trade.html

The sooner these new regulations come into force, we should be seeing many more cases like yours.
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#29 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by Hithard » 25 Feb 2014 07:20

Good news Peter. Did the judge award cost in your favour too or is that still ongoing?
Hope you're going to drive your returned van past the bailiffs office and give them a nice wave.
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#30 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by monkeynuts » 25 Feb 2014 08:09

Brilliant news :D

Next steps reclaim what you are owed :D
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#31 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van, please help!

Post by Amy » 25 Feb 2014 09:17

Really well done Peter, brilliant news and a special thank you to Monkeynuts too.

xx

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#32 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van - Returned & Won!

Post by peterabs » 27 Feb 2014 22:29

Sorry I've not been online the internet has been playing up. I am definitely now interested in suing the bailiffs and police, the amount of stress, inconvenience and money this has cost me is unreal.

The van was returned on Wednesday 26th February 2014 at 2pm with an empty fuel tank and a flat tyre. It left with 1/4 tank od diesel and in a reasonable condition. When they dropped it off they asked me to sign there paperwork to say I was happy with the condition it was returned in. I refused to sign there paperwork as it wasn't in the same condition it had left in. Also when I read the paperwork further down it basically said I waive my rights to sue for damages to the vehicle and any loss of earnings ect. I gave them a letter I quickly typed and printed stating I had received the truck, with an empty fuel tank and flat tyre and that I will be billing them for this. I didn't sign the letter just printed my name. The bailiffs offered me £20 for the fuel that was missing, which I refused so it could not later be referred to as a pay off.

The police sergeant dealing with my complaint is supposedly coming to my home tomorrow evening to discuss in more detail. I have no idea how to take this further or where to start. Any suggestions will be gratefully received.

Thanks
Pete

P.S Thanks for putting this in your success stories folder, hope this helps more people like me!! :D

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#33 Re: Baliffs have taken my works van - Returned & Won!

Post by jasonDWB » 27 Feb 2014 23:12

When you get a police home visit, it's usually to make excuses for not investigating a complaint. The litmus test you must make before you start any discussion is ask for a CRIME number. It you get an excuse then you might as well show the sergeant the door because you proven it is just a lip service visit.

Learn this before the visit. http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/ba ... police.htm
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs. Beat the Bailiffs
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