Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

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gumtreegirl
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#1 Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 13:46

Hi there,

I just called TEC and they told me that the warrant for my PCN expired 4 days ago. No extension has been applied for and he told me that they can apply for a new warrant at any point in the future.
Is this correct? It was my understanding that once the warrant has expired the 'debt' dies?

I have also just arrived home to a Final Pre Removal Notice which means the bailiff was here this morning.

Please may I have some advice as to what to do now? Is it a letter to the council?
I have asked TEC to email me proof that the warrant has expired so that should arrive soon.


Thank you so much in advance.

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Andy
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#2 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Andy » 20 Oct 2014 17:01

This advice doesn't sound right, any warrants they were due to expire would have done before April 6 2014, this is because the law was changed so that warrants of control now run for 6 years under the Limitations Act 1980.
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#3 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 17:09

Thanks Andy, I have been trying to get my head round all that with some sites saying it is for warrants issued before April 2013 and some saying as long as it was issued before April 2014.
Never the less the TEC are the ones who hold the warrant are they? and that's what they said, not just once but twice as I called them on the 17th and they said the same thing, I only called again today to double check as the bailiff had been here and to get proof in an email.

Am I right in thinking this lack of warrant means the whole thing dies?

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#4 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Andy » 20 Oct 2014 17:20

Well you need to find out what date it was actually issued, for the warrant to expire it had to have been issued before April 6 2013 for it to expire on April 6 2014, warrants issued after April 6 2013 will still be running under the Limitations Act 1980.
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#5 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 17:31

They said at the TEC it was issued 16th Oct 2013 which is why it is showing as expired. Surely they can't be giving incorrect information? I have it in writing from them too.

But I understand what you are saying, maybe it is anything that was issued after April 2014 will be affected not 2013?

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#6 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Andy » 20 Oct 2014 18:59

I'm fairly sure it was 2013/14 however, for your own piece of mind - have a chat with JasonDWB as he will be up to date with everything regarding warrants of control. He should be on at some point and will answer this post.
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#7 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 19:31

Thanks Andy I appreciate your help.

If it may add a little clarity to the situation I went ahead and tried to put everything down with dates etc.


Parked with broken machine - 15th May 2013

Letter and photos of broken machine sent - 15th May 2013

Received letter from Collect Services Enforcement of Road Traffic Debts Order 1993 owing £110.44 - 23rd October 2013

Filed Out Of Time with TEC - October 2013

Received refusal notice - 15th November 2013 (nb. in this letter it said 'the response from the local authority should have already been served to you, It haden't so I
waited. When I brought this up with the Council he replied that he had told the court he would not be sending me a response and if I had been given wrong information to take it up with them. How was I supposed to know this?)


Next letter from Collect Services owing £110.44 - 15th January 2014
(trying to get advice where to go next, rang Collect, compose letter etc)

Warrant of Execution for Unpaid Penalty Charge £420.34 - 23rd January 2014
(panicked and paid £110.44 over phone to Collect)

Notice of Intended Seizure of Goods and Inventory owing £223.90 - 13th March 2013 (how does 420-110=223?)

Email and letter with proof of postage to Collect asking for a breakdown of fees - 19th March 2014

Email received confirmation email from Collect - 19th March 2014 (despite Council saying later Collect say they didn't receive anything from me)

Email to CEO of council explaining situation - 25th March 2014

Reply from CEO saying he will pass it on to parking dept - 25th March 2014

Email to CEO saying had not received anything from parking dept as of yet - 2nd April 2014

Email from council apologising for no reply saying they will chase parking dept - 3rd April 2014

Email from Council parking dept addressing the points I had sent to the CEO - 7th May 2014 (saying amongst other things that Collect had not received my fee request but he had acquired one on my behalf. £420 not mentioned, I ask why in next email)

Sent reply email to council parking dept backing up my points and addressing his replies - 11th May 2014

Emailed both my local councilors asking for advice - 15th May 2014

Received an email reply from one councilor - 20th May 2014 (can't do much to help but understands frustration)

(Waiting for reply from Collect re. fees breakdown and reply from parking dept after last email)

Letter from Collect saying further to previous communications been instructed to continue, pay in full £223.90 - 19th August 2014

Warrant of Execution expires 16th October 2014. Confirmed by TEC over phone and via email - 17th and 20th October 2014

Letter from Collect 'Final Pre Removal Advice' £223.90 - 20th October 2014



I hope this helps to make sense of things, it has helped for me to set it all out. If you still need things attaching like letters etc I can do that if there is not enough information here.

Fees breakdown from Council were as follows -

Total £334.34
Paid £110.44
Balance £223.90


Date Type Amount VAT Total
15/05/2013 Costs 7.00 0.00 7.00
15/05/2013 Debt 90.00 0.00 90.00
23/10/2013 Letter Fee 11.20 2.24 13.44
23/01/2014 Visit/Levy Fee 1 31.00 6.20 37.20
23/01/2014 Attendance Fee 1 14.58 22.92 137.50
13/03/2014 Visit/Levy Fee 2 41.00 8.20 49.20

I suppose my main points are -

No NTO received
Where did £420 come from? - not mentioned anywhere
No reply to breakdown of fees request and denied receiving one despite sending a confirmation email saying received
No reply from council
Wrong advice from TEC re. Council getting in touch after OOT refused
Illegal fees?
Nothing signed or levied
No valid warrant as of October 16th 2014

Thank you again in advance

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#8 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Andy » 20 Oct 2014 20:08

Those fees do not look right, nothing in regulations provides for 'letter fees' The law that sets statutory bailiffs fees for collecting unpaid civil debts is Table 1 of Schedule 1 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 which prescribes a "Compliance stage" fee of £75 when you were given the statutory Notice of Enforcement.

If the bailiff has attended after at least seven days clear excluding Sundays and public holidays, then there is a further "Enforcement stage" fixed fee of £235. These rules do not apply to criminal penalties such as a court fine.

The £75 is payable when the bailiff has been instructed to recover the debt. This is NOT when the bailiff company has received the instruction. Regulation 5(1)(a) of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.

The £235 enforcement stage fee is payable when the bailiff first attends the debtors address on the instruction, but NOT any other address. Regulation 5(1)(b). This fee DOES NOT apply if your car is clamped away from the address by an ANPR van without the bailiff having attended your address.
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#9 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by jasonDWB » 20 Oct 2014 20:49

This is old fee rules. They allowed a letter fee £11.20 but none of this van fee and 'attending to remove' fees. Over on DWB there are still the last of the old rule fee reclaims progressing the claims track. All look good except one where an errant judge allowed a £190 van fee but it was quickly N164 'd when the statement of reason wasn't disclosed then the decision was quickly overturned at circuit level and the district has early retirement.

No warrant doesn't mean no debt, it just means the debt is unenforceable.

No Notice to Owner. The cookie crumbles. The only ways you can stop a bailiff recovering an unpaid civil traffic debt are:


1. You APPEAL the offence by making a STATUTORY DECLARATION or a WITNESS STATEMENT. This article explains how to do that and get some grounds to support your appeal. Enforcement stops at 4pm the day you file the appeal at court - which can be done online. 

2. If you are a vulnerable person or in a vulnerable household then Regulation 10(1) of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 provides statutory protection for vulnerable households from enforcement action.  You can have the council withdraw the bailiff from your property. This article explains how to do that. 

3. Pay the council direct. Paragraph 31 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 says when enforcement action has ceased, the bailiff cannot enforce the recovery of fees.

4. Do an enforcement compliance check, and see what other grounds are available to you to stop the bailiffs.
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#10 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 21:20

Thank you Jason,

So this case is still under the old rules? pre April 2014?
Do I need to do any of those stages if the Warrant has expired? Surely if it is unenforceable then nothing more can happen?

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#11 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by jasonDWB » 20 Oct 2014 21:28

The fees are old rules but without a live warrant the bailiffs risks an EAC2 complaint hearing if he chooses to execute a dead warrant.
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#12 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 21:38

Thank you, so should I just do nothing? Or should I write to the council and the bailiff to say that I had a letter today and I am aware that there is no live warrant?

Is there anything preventing this coming up again in the future legally or should that be the end of them being able to enforce this?

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#13 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Pote Snitkin » 20 Oct 2014 22:04

Just to chip in, I've noticed you're posting this on Legal Beagles, and getting replies from 'Wombats'. That could cause you problems. He's a very unstable character with a supposed history of severe mental health problems.
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On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

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#14 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 22:10

Oh gosh, thanks I will bear that in mind.

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#15 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Pote Snitkin » 20 Oct 2014 22:14

The 'expert' he will have emailed will undoubtedly be 'Milo' a lady called Saturn Five, who works very closely with Marston Bailiffs and will do all she can to convince you to drop any action. Wombats is one of her lackeys - I see he is already telling you to not take this any further.
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

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#16 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 22:19

He is? Thank you I will stick to this site, I guess you get a bit desperate with no official body to turn to and just try and get help and advice from all over!

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#17 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 22:29

Thank you both I will close that thread.

Jason, should I just do nothing? Or do I write to the council and the bailiff to say that I had a letter today and I am aware that there is no live warrant?

Is there anything that means this can come up again in the future legally or should that be the end of them being able to enforce this?

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#18 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by jasonDWB » 20 Oct 2014 22:31

You must write to the council addressed to the CEO in a letter marked FORMAL COMPLAINT and ask they cease and desist enforcement of an expired warrant.

[lgo][/lgo]
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#19 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 22:38

Thanks a lot Jason, I will do that and get it sent off and give them a call and post up when/if they reply.

Thanks Pote Snitkin also for your warning..heeded.

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#20 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 20 Oct 2014 22:50

Would this letter suffice?....


FORMAL COMPLAINT


Re: Penalty Charge Notice Number:

I make this formal complaint because I received a bailiff letter this morning from the company acting on your behalf collecting the aforementioned road traffic debt.

There is no valid warrant for this ticket, therefore all enforcement must cease.


Please note, the authority is liable for its bailiff company so it is not my duty to "contact the bailiffs" or to "deal with the bailiff" on your behalf. There is no contract between myself and your enforcement contractor that has been approved by me. Preston v Peeke [1895] EB&E 336. Any dispute you have with your contractor is a matter you need to settle between yourselves.

If you are unable or unwilling to resolve this complaint in full then please clearly mark your response letter with the words FINAL RESOLUTION and I will ask the Local Government Ombudsman to intervene.

Yours faithfully


CCs:
The CEO of .................., for information only.

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#21 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by jasonDWB » 20 Oct 2014 22:54

It needs to be addressed to the council CEO and cc to bailiff company.

Forget Preston Peeke because Paragraph 7 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 says creditors are responsible and accountable for the enforcement agents acting on their behalf. This means any legal action for damages for wrongful enforcement is always taken against the creditor.
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#22 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Mark1960 » 21 Oct 2014 17:06

Pote Snitkin wrote:The 'expert' he will have emailed will undoubtedly be 'Milo' a lady called Saturn Five, who works very closely with Marston Bailiffs and will do all she can to convince you to drop any action. Wombats is one of her lackeys - I see he is already telling you to not take this any further.
Well in Pote-Not only are you absolutely spot on, but you've prompted the pair of them to go into overdrive over there. :lol:

Nice to see he's recovered from half kicking himself to death over not knowing about the police helicopter Twitter page. One minute he claims a particular search was for him, 2 days later he claims that they don't report searches for him. Why would anyone in their right mind seek advice from this idiot?

What is especially amusing is that 2 of the biggest internet trolls on the bailiff boards are now talking about........ internet trolls. You couldn't make it up.

I think this confirms that they haven't drowned in their own hypocrisy yet.

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#23 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by jasonDWB » 21 Oct 2014 18:15

The LB/CAG rant of the week is about trolls. Next week it will be about spoof posts. People signing up pretending to have a bailiff problem.
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#24 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Mark1960 » 21 Oct 2014 18:34

Do they not realise that everyone knows that they've had more usernames between them than the rest of us put together?

They systematically gang up against you, hijack threads & of course lets not forget the despicable claims that someone had attempted suicide, in a repulsive attempt to deflect the court fines that were reported on here.

Trolls of the highest order & hypocrites to boot.

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#25 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by jasonDWB » 21 Oct 2014 18:46

The suicide stuff doesn't concern me. I'm not the Samaritans.

I don't agree with forum management allowing a troll to obfuscate a member getting bailiff redress just because they disagree with the law that redress advice is based.

All those flame wars about "proof" when the troll is unable to show any is testament to the effort to disrupt good quality advice.
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#26 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 21 Oct 2014 19:17

jasonDWB wrote: Next week it will be about spoof posts. People signing up pretending to have a bailiff problem.
Why on earth would anyone pretend to have a bailiff problem? It's so stressful I wouldn't wish it on anyone :shock:

You're right things got a bit spicy over there.

I've sent the emails and the letters so we'll see what if anything happens, I should get a reply from the council I assume...let's see.

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#27 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Pote Snitkin » 21 Oct 2014 19:41

As you can see Gumtreegirl, the moment you realised what their game was, they locked your thread, so even if you wanted to return you couldn't. I wonder if they've also blocked your account?

See the post #3 here to see what type of person 'Wombats' is:
viewtopic.php?f=38&p=27472#p27472

It's shocking that he is allowed to continue.
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On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

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#28 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by jasonDWB » 21 Oct 2014 19:47

There are people out there hell-bent on disrupting people getting quality bailiff advice. They have a connection with bailiff companies and want to scupper a claim being made against them.

Milo on the other board is also posting as 'Bailiff Advice' on another forum under a pretence she (yes its a female masquerading with male forum names) wants to help. All she does is counsel the debt, get you to stop legal action and repay the debt without making any analysis the debt and the enforcement is even compliant with the law. She runs this website. http://bailiffadviceonline.co.uk/ and look a little deeper, you get this. http://asaintcalledallnights.blogspot.c ... e.html?m=1

For several years, she ran a troll campaign directed at me which included posting my private information around the internet and having an accomplice anonymously make a malicious complaint to HMRC I am a tax fraud. This not only exposed the identity of the accomplice but also exposed Milo/Bailiff Advice a three-times convicted tax fraudster.

This whole episode was an effort to discredit me and my website Dealing with Bailiffs.co.uk.

This shows the extreme lengths bailiff companies will go to get quality advice taken off the internet. Those efforts include gaining favour with website forum administrators to censor advice the bailiff companies disagree with. http://www.marstongroup.co.uk/team-member/marc-gander/

Today, she rants on two forums concurrently about trolls and anonymous posters. I find that laughable.
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#29 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Amy » 21 Oct 2014 21:26

Gumtreegirl, I'm going to move your thread away from his prying eyes. He really is something else!

xx

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#30 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by gumtreegirl » 21 Oct 2014 21:37

Thanks Amy!!

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#31 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Mark1960 » 21 Oct 2014 22:38

jasonDWB wrote:The suicide stuff doesn't concern me. I'm not the Samaritans.

I don't agree with forum management allowing a troll to obfuscate a member getting bailiff redress just because they disagree with the law that redress advice is based.

All those flame wars about "proof" when the troll is unable to show any is testament to the effort to disrupt good quality advice.
The sickening thing about the "suicide" story is that it was untrue. Made up entirely by a troll who sought to deflect the attention that cheque fraud stories were getting and make us feel guilty for discovering the source.

Its just like when he claims to "hardly know the woman" and then goes on to try to justify crime by stating on his blog that everyone hits low points at some time or another. Great-Next time I'm a bit short of cash, I'll just go & rob the local shop at gunpoint then. How can you possibly be at a low point if you're running 2 cars?

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#32 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Amy » 21 Oct 2014 23:15

gumtreegirl wrote:Thanks Amy!!
All moved for you Lovely, post away xx

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#33 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by jasonDWB » 22 Oct 2014 08:19

Saturn Five (milo and Bailiff Advice) is guilty of the same. She says she had been in hospital when sympathy is needed but she goofed by telling two different CAG members a different story it was her husband that was in hospital.
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#34 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by Amy » 22 Oct 2014 12:42

Do you remember the one where WD joined here claiming to be on the maternity ward using wifi having just given birth to twins! PMSL, I think her child bearing days are nothing but a distant memory.

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#35 Re: Expired Warrant Bailiff still turning up

Post by jasonDWB » 22 Oct 2014 15:51

I lost track of the aliases she used to hide behind. I think she got it from Saturn Five.

I think the moderators of LB and CAG only allow her to carry on their forums to save their own embarrassment in betting on her to be a legitimate helper for people of bailiff problems. I when she was outed during the making of the BBC Panorama bailiff program, her cover was well & truly blown. She was caught with knickers at half mast.
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