Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

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Mark1960
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#71 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 26 Mar 2016 12:44

Fees will always die if an authority switches to an AOE (just ask the dinosaurs :D )

As I have understood Outlaws previous investigations into payments, there appears to be 2 main software systems that authorities use, one of which allocates all payments to the latest years account, unless specified otherwise. I remember helping someone once, where she was asked to make 2 separate transactions, one for the current years tax and a separate one for the arrears.

In the case of Mag1nMc, the argument is that the greedy council have pocketed the entire payment, leaving the amount outstanding on the original LO as £0. Reg 35(3) of the Enforcement Regs states:
(3) The amount in respect of which a liability order is made is enforceable in accordance with this Part;
The part referred to is part V1 (enforcement), of which Reg 45 is contained. As I read this, the power under Reg45 has died as the debt and costs associated with obtaining the LO have been settled. The way to have kept the power alive was to divide payments pro-rata.

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Schedule 12
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#72 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Schedule 12 » 26 Mar 2016 13:09

I'm not in agreement with dividing up pro-rata, any payments to the authority.

This application is under regulation 13 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.

It applies to proceeds under Paragraph 50 of Schedule 12 which says goods must have been controlled in order for a sum to be taken in exercise of the enforcement power.

I'm sorry to keep banging this old drum. The more I look at it, the more the case is that payments to the council is not available to the operation of Paragraph 50/reg 13.
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Mark1960
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#73 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 26 Mar 2016 15:02

Well certainly in this case, it makes sense to use the wording to work in the OPs favour. Certainly, legislation is clear that when the amount on the LO is paid, the power to use Sch12 via Reg 45 dies.

To me, this is a much easier argument than trying to tell a creditor that they may not divide payments up pro-rata. You will never succeed in doing this and as we've seen with magistrates court fines, once the creditor has split the payment, it has not been possible to stop enforcement, or reverse a decision. You will also see on page 1 of this thread, one councils stance, which is identical to the HMRC stance.

Par 50 does not say that goods must have been controlled in order for a sum to be taken. It states that money can be divided either from the sale of goods or from money taken in the exercise of power. It is quite reasonable to read "money taken during an exercise of power". Indeed, looking up the word "in" in the dictionary, confirms this.

Going back to this case, it is irrelevant when and how proceeds must be divided, because none have been. It could be argued that the £75 fee was incurred lawfully because the compliance stage began before the power had ceased but we are countering that the case wasn't passed to the individual EA until after the debt was PIF.

Certainly, the enforcement fee occurred after the power had died and as per Reg 17 of the fees Regs, is not enforceable.

Given the efforts made by the OP to address this debt and the misunderstanding with the card transaction, I think that if the council had any decency, they would reach a compromise here, by removing the enforcement fee and asking just for the compliance fee. I don't hold much hope of finding a council acting with decency though-They all just pass these matters on to their agents to address themselves.

Mag1nMc
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#74 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 19 Apr 2016 08:32

Hi all
Apologies for delay. Had a family emergency I've been dealing with.
Response back from council is they don't admit bailiff were wrong, but they will erase the £235 fee leaving a £75 compliance fee.
This overall was my target so thank you to everyone who gave advice. I couldn't have done it without you.
Will post letter up as soon as i get 5.

In solidarity.

M

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#75 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 19 Apr 2016 08:34

Council reply
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Schedule 12
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#76 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Schedule 12 » 19 Apr 2016 08:49

The council has complied with the law. You might as well take it and move on.

The £75 is due when the bailiff is instructed, but the council knows he cannot take control of goods in respect of it when the sum due is paid.

Well done Mark! another £235 under your belt.
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Amy
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#77 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Amy » 19 Apr 2016 09:21

Well done Mark, another result!

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#78 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 19 Apr 2016 09:43

It is interesting that this is yet another debtor who also sought advice on CAG.

Lady Harding told the OP that he owed the money and that there was nothing else she could do to help.

Thankfully, the OP found this site.

I Don't know how many times this has to happen before Harding and her chimp are stopped. Neither of them are motivated to help people and both do everything they can to thwart the help people recieve here. It is reprehensible behaviour, aided by the site owner who turns a blind eye to it.

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#79 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Schedule 12 » 19 Apr 2016 09:45

There is nothing more we can do. Its taken several years but we have taken away nearly all CAG boards bailiff traffic. There will be the odd one that slips through.
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#80 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 19 Apr 2016 10:28

They're both getting giddy this morning about JK's response to the chimps question about paying the creditor directly.

Neither of them realise that JK didn't cover scenarios like this one, where the council don't divide payments.

There was another one last week where a debtor had all fees removed.

In both cases, the debtor had paid directly before joining the forum. Nobody on here advised them to do so.

As this is a bailiff help forum, not a bailiff support forum like CAG, we helped the debtors as best we could under the circumstances. The result is a combined saving of £545.

We do not advise to pay directly, we advise to pay nothing at all, to sit it out, to put the none into an ISA and wait for the debt to be returned. If of course the debtor wishes to do so. Normally, once the enforcement fee is triggered, many do opt to sit it out.

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#81 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Pote Snitkin » 19 Apr 2016 12:30

The whole of JK's thoughts need to be posted rather than an excerpt of Fenella's choosing. Only then can a proper discussion can take place.
On 29/07/17, Compo said "If you are interested I actually typed the word label. My spell checker interpreted it as liable" Discuss.

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#82 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Pote Snitkin » 19 Apr 2016 13:28

Within 15 minutes of me posting the above Fenella posts:
I will ask JK later today if I can reproduce some further comments of his (in particular his comment about the Stage Two fee imposed when enforcing High Court debts).
Sunday has come around quick this week. She also tries her guilt-trip act:
Also, if debtors are going to be encouraged to 'sit it out' and refuse to make payment until the debt is returned to the council this could likely lead to more local authorities imposing even stricter conditions in their contracts regarding payment arrangements.

Also, 'withholding' money that is rightly due to a local authority will lead to more councils (such as mine) running out of money and having to lay off large numbers of employees.
Of course it could also lead to councils considering other options before sending the bailiffs in as a default setting. It could also make councils have warrants returned promptly when they realise the debtor is more clued up and is refusing to play ball.

Oh, and it matters not one iota how the councils jiggle their contracts - legislation will always trump them.
On 29/07/17, Compo said "If you are interested I actually typed the word label. My spell checker interpreted it as liable" Discuss.

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Amy
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#83 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Amy » 19 Apr 2016 13:34

Moving to "Successes". You'll have to search for it Sheila, next Sunday.

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#84 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Caz » 20 Apr 2016 12:32

Help
When filing a PE2/3 what are they looking for as reasons??? any examples??

I have had the first one refused... so I don't want to get this next one wrong

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#85 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Amy » 20 Apr 2016 14:01

Your grounds can be:

You did not receive a notice to owner (NTO)
Your ticket is not valid
You sold the vehicle and/or recently moved and received a bailiff unexpectedly
The alleged contravention did not occur
If you are outside the time limit to appeal, you can make an Out of Time Statutory Declaration saying why you are late
If you can't think of any grounds to appeal then get your PCN and other documents looked at by an expert by posting them the PePiPoo Fightback forums.

Your first appeal will almost always be rejected. This is common place, so you will invariable have to escalate your appeal to a tribunal. In London it is PATAS and elsewhere it is the TPT.

http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/St ... ailiff.htm

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#86 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Caz » 24 Apr 2016 20:19

Thanks

I have had some success! Seeing as I couldn't talk to the parking enforcement department, and was not getting any reply via email from them, I emailed the Chief Executive at the Harrow Council explained everything and they have let me pay the fines at the original price, because I could prove my change of address.

So now I can start my complaints... It is absolutely ridiculous that a bailiff can turn up like that when he knew all the notifications went to my old address... they have even confirmed that all the notifications had gone there in an email to me, and then he has told a load of lies about how things unfolded that day, I'm also thinking that maybe the guy that turned up at my door wasn't the Bailiff himself, maybe a partner of the said Bailiff... I have to get to the bottom of all this now... I will be complaining to the council also, they shouldn't be using this Bailiff company. I have been in a terrible state about this now for 6 weeks. How many people would have just handed over that money!!! just because it's a bailiff and people get scared

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#87 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by ten1000trees » 12 Jul 2016 08:57

Hi Jason,

This is not the same advice you gave me on this thread????


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3792&p=53181#p53181

Joanne

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#88 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by ten1000trees » 12 Jul 2016 08:59

ten1000trees wrote:Hi Jason,

This is not the same advice you gave me on this thread????


viewtopic.php?f=6&t=3792&p=53181#p53181

Joanne
They came back at 6:30 this morning and shoved a letter through the door saying they are coming back to seize goods and have ticked every possible date . If they take my car I can't work. It's not my debt it's my husbands, they haven't even seen or spoken to my husband.

I'm on the verge of a nervous breakdown....

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Schedule 12
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#89 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Schedule 12 » 12 Jul 2016 09:07

If you are who I think you are, can you telephone me. Otherwise, you can set up a consultation (£35) and I can ask a solicitor to apply for an emergency injunction to stop the enforcement action.

I need all of the following before I can injunct a bailiff company. I have to prove to the court the bailiff is acting in breach of Schedule 12.
  • 1. Evidence of the original sum you (your husband) were fined. a court document etc.

    2. Evidence of money transfer or receipts for payment of the sum you were fined

    3. Evidence of a bailiff seeking to take an enforcement step on a date after the sum in (2) above was paid. e.g. the document pushed through the door
.

We can take care of the rest.
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ten1000trees
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#90 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by ten1000trees » 12 Jul 2016 09:32

I'm still not who you think I am....

I have evidence of the amount still due on 14th March - a letter from court as he had missed a payment - he then made an arrangement over the phone to pay monthly.
I have email receipts of all payments since totalling this amount, final payment on 18th June which was the payment due in May plus the remainder.
I have a removal notice given to me on 5th July
I have a final notice pushed through the door today

The courts told us over the phone they passed it to them on the 7th June

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#91 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by ten1000trees » 12 Jul 2016 09:34

The final notice has tick boxes saying I shall remove your goods for sale at public auction

one evening this week
one morning this week
after 7pm today
this weekend

all of them are ticked

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Schedule 12
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#92 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Schedule 12 » 12 Jul 2016 09:47

It doesn't matter what day Court Service passed the case to bailiffs.

If you can show the sum adjudged was paid into court, not the fees, and a bailiff is still threatening to attend (which is classed an "enforcement step") then you have a right to apply for injunctive relief.
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