Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Tell us how you beat the bailiffs.
Post Reply
Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#1 Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 07 Mar 2016 15:35

Hello all,
I was after some help please.
I had a visit from a bailiff today and missed him. He left a letter through my door telling me that he was collecting £310 for unpaid CT.
Now i cleared this debt in January, however, found out from the council that the day I paid it they had sent it to bailiffs for enforcement action.
Do i have to pay the £75 + £235 when there is no debt outstanding?
Thanks for your help.

M

User avatar
Schedule 12
Posts: 12691
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Location: London WC2
Contact:

#2 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Schedule 12 » 07 Mar 2016 15:55

If you have paid the sum on the liability order, then the enforcement power has ceased.

You don't owe anything.

If the council is giving public money to a company, then that is not your problem.
Run this Checklist. If no joy, then we'll fix it
Author: dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#3 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 07 Mar 2016 16:01

Hi Jason,
thanks for that.
How do i respond to the letter then? He states he is coming back out on the 9th March to seize goods.

Cheers,

M

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6276
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#4 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Pote Snitkin » 07 Mar 2016 16:08

Has he sent a notice of enforcement before today's visit? If so, what date is on it? What date did you pay the CT?
On 25/07/17, Dodgeball said "Telling the truth isn’t slander, in fact, it wouldn’t be slander anyway, as that is verbal not written. Liable is the word you are looking for." Discuss.

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#5 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 07 Mar 2016 16:13

Hello Pote,
Yes he did. I have it in front of me. Notice of Enforcement Agent visit. It's dated the 8th Feb 2016. I paid my CT on the 18th January I believe in full. Actually, I overpaid by £1.50.
I buried my head thinking as I had paid the original debt, no action could be taken against me.

M

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#6 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 07 Mar 2016 16:34

How did you pay on 18th January? Can you prove that payment was made on that day?

Are you certain of these dates?

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#7 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 07 Mar 2016 16:37

Hello Mark,
I paid via debit card. It is on my statement. I also have a letter from the council telling me the outstanding CT has been paid in full.
An email I got form Rossendales also states "We can also confirm that Sefton MBC have advised us that you have made payment of £268.50 to them. However the amount you paid did not include our costs which were charged on the 12th January 2016.''

Appreciate the help. My missus is terrified.

M

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#8 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 07 Mar 2016 16:54

Just to double check here.

Is the notice that you received on 8th Feb the first correspondence you received from Rossendales?

The first notice should have simply been entitled "Notice of Enforcement"

Could it be possible that the first correspondence you received from Rossendales was on 12th January and the first visit from Rossendales was on 8th Feb?

What prompted you to suddenly pay in full on 18th January?

Do you or your missus own a car?

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6276
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#9 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Pote Snitkin » 07 Mar 2016 18:15

Mag1nMc wrote:Hello Pote,
Yes he did. I have it in front of me. Notice of Enforcement Agent visit. It's dated the 8th Feb 2016. I paid my CT on the 18th January I believe in full.
As Mark says, you need to be 100% sure. You say the letter dated 8th Feb says notice of enforcement agent visit. Do you you mean 'visit'? The first letter would say notice of enforcement with £75 added, and a warning of a visit if not paid within 7 days.

How many letters via Royal Mail have you had? It might be best if you could scan them or take a pic and upload them onto here. Ensure any personal details are covered, including any ref numbers and barcodes.
On 25/07/17, Dodgeball said "Telling the truth isn’t slander, in fact, it wouldn’t be slander anyway, as that is verbal not written. Liable is the word you are looking for." Discuss.

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#10 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 07 Mar 2016 20:05

Hi guys,
I paid on the 18th as that's when I got paid from a job I had been doing.
There was one letter received by Royal Mail which stated Notice of Enforcement and asking for 75 sovs.
This one today then posted by the bailiff.
We do have a car we leave on the drive. We don't get on with the neighbours so can't leave it on their drives. It's on the drive so my wife can manage our one year old child in to the car seat.
Is there anything that can be done?

M

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#11 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 07 Mar 2016 20:12

If the letter asking for 75 sovs was received before you paid on the 18th then unfortunately, there is nothing you can do.

Given the way your missus feels, coupled with the fact that your car is a sitting duck, you may well have to bite the bullet on this one.

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#12 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 07 Mar 2016 20:20

Does that mean pay the 75 and the 235?
I can understand and justify the £75 but how can they then try and collect £235 when the debt doesn't exist?

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#13 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 07 Mar 2016 20:27

You can argue it and fight it-I'm sure that others will encourage you to.

I can't guarantee that Rossendales will stop and you've already stated that your missus is terrified.

I'll tell you now that if you take this up with the council, they will just allow Rossendales to respond. There is no quick fix to this and no guarantee that we can get funds refunded but if you want to try, I'd discuss it with your missus first.

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#14 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 07 Mar 2016 20:33

Thanks for the advice Mark.
I am going to fight as much as I can as it's very wrong. I am hoping my local councillor and MP might be able to help. I'm seeing them tomorrow.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#15 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 07 Mar 2016 20:56

Make sure you ask for enforcement action to be suspended whilst you are contesting this. I wouldn't hold your breath though-You are questioning a Government body-They don't give a monkeys about you or your family, just so long as they get their money off you.

I do this stuff all the time-I have a good idea of what can and can't be done. Here is a response I received from one recovery manager, just before Christmas;
In your email you raise concerns about our response to a Freedom of Information (FOI) request and in particular, concerns in relation to payments that are made directly to the Council in settlement of a council tax debt once a case has been referred to enforcement agents.

Our understanding is that Regulation 13 (of The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014) clearly provides for the distribution of funds received where less than the full amount is paid.

Regulation 13(1) refers to ‘the proceeds from the exercise of an enforcement power’. We do not agree that Regulation 13 has the very narrow meaning so as only to affect the distribution of funds raised by sale of goods at public auction.

The regulation clearly provides for auctioneers fees (where incurred) to be paid first, followed by the compliance fee and then by a pro-rata split of the remaining proceeds between the sum due to be recovered and any other fees incurred by the enforcement agent.

To treat a payment made directly to the Council by a debtor any differently to a payment made directly to the enforcement agent would, in our view, be acting against the statutory rules.

In your email you also suggest that our FOI response was taken from an article published in Enforcement News. I do not think that this was the case as I believe that our response to the FOI request was made some time prior to the publication of that article.

I hope this clarifies our position.
I don't agree with the above statement but that is what you're up against.

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6276
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#16 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Pote Snitkin » 07 Mar 2016 21:40

Mag1nMc wrote:Hi guys,
I paid on the 18th as that's when I got paid from a job I had been doing.
There was one letter received by Royal Mail which stated Notice of Enforcement and asking for 75 sovs.
This one today then posted by the bailiff.
I just want to confirm - you paid the debt on 18th Jan. You received a letter via Royal Mail dated 8th Feb, a notice of enforcement adding £75 only. Is that correct?
On 25/07/17, Dodgeball said "Telling the truth isn’t slander, in fact, it wouldn’t be slander anyway, as that is verbal not written. Liable is the word you are looking for." Discuss.

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#17 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 08 Mar 2016 06:15

Hello Pote,
I did pay on the 18th. That is correct.
What i received on the 8th Feb was Notice of Enforcement Agent visit-Final Opportunity. There must have been a previous letter. I can't seem to find it though.
The guy is due back out tomorrow. The car is on finance, so does that make a difference in them trying to levy it?
I'm sorry i've buried my head over all this.

M

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#18 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 08 Mar 2016 06:24

Would these regs be applicable in my case at all? I am after as much ammo as possible for when I meet my MP and local councillors today.
I've paid for the templates on the dealing with bailiffs site.

Regulation 4(3) of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 says:

The enforcement agent may recover under this regulation the whole fee provided in the Schedule for a stage where the amount outstanding is paid after the commencement, but before the completion, of that stage.

That proves the bailiff is unable to charge a £235 enforcement stage fee if he tries recovering a £75 by attending.



Also, guideline 31 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 says:

Enforcement agents must not seek to enforce the recovery of fees where an enforcement power has ceased to be exercisable.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#19 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 08 Mar 2016 06:33

I personally wouldn't rely on any of the templates you have purchased-They are little more than the (incorrect) opinions of one individual.

The bottom line is that your car is at risk. I've known some bailiffs to clamp a car and others to leave it. There are a couple of PCN cases on going at present where the debtor has paid the PCN but not the bailiff fees. It is a gamble.

It is all very well someone telling you that the bailiff can't clamp or remove your car but it isn't going to help you much if he does, is it?

Just one word-Bailiffs rarely re-attend when they say they are going to. They normally threaten to, hoping that you will pay before the return visit.

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#20 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 08 Mar 2016 07:23

Hi Mark,
so those guidelines are wrong? Thanks for that. You are correct over the car. My missus uses it for work and the baby, so we would be screwed without it.
Very informative, I like everyone else, assumed on finance it couldn't be touched. This forum is very insightful.
I might try and offer the £75, see if they are happy with that. I will update you as to how I get on with the councillors and MP.
I also asked for a physical copy of my liability order and a breakdown of the LO fees I paid too, so awaiting that information.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#21 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 08 Mar 2016 07:34

The Real nitty gritty is revolving around where the payment has gone.

I Would contact the council and get it confirmed that there is is No outstanding balance.

Your argument would then become much stronger. As you see from the quote I posted above, some council pass payments directly to bailiffs, meaning a balance is always outstanding

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#22 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 08 Mar 2016 08:01

I already have it in writing off the Council that my debt has been paid in full. I have an email off Rossendales confirming the council told them the debt is clear but I still owe their fees though.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#23 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 08 Mar 2016 09:22

You Do still owe the fees. The Problem is that it is very unclear as to whether a bailiff can enforce for them when the creditor has kept hold of a payment made directly (as in your case)

Any argument of following statutory procedure has gone out of the window. My own feeling is that Rossendales cannot use the procedure just to collect their fees. The Problem that you have is that they might not agree and if your car is seized, you will have a massive problem and if you want to challenge them, you will probably have to instigate legal proceedings. On the other hand, they may leave the car alone and focus on their silly "two letter strategy " which is about as much use as the templates that you've bought, given that the debt is paid in full.

How long has the car been on finance? How long have you left to pay and what amount is outstanding? How much is the car worth?

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#24 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 08 Mar 2016 10:45

Finance about 4 years. Agreement is finished this year.
Car is worth roughly 3k.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#25 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 08 Mar 2016 11:27

Even your car has some equity in it. Whether they'd risk selling it is another thing but they may clamp or even remove it.

I Can only repeat what I've already said. There is no guarantee that your car is safe. Personally, if I were in your shoes, I would take this one on the chin and pay the fees. It's just not worth the risk for such a comparatively small amount of money.

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#26 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 08 Mar 2016 12:09

Hi Mark,
thanks for the advice.
Here is an accurate timeline of what happened in my case now. This email I sent before I found this forum.
Dear Mr Mcbirnie

I refer to your emails and telephone calls to my office concerning the current enforcement action being taken against you by Rossendales Enforcement Agents for your above Council Tax account.

A summons was issued to you on 13 October 2015, for a Liability Order hearing on 2 November 2015. On receipt of this summons you made contact with my office on 20 October 2015, when it was agreed that the application for the Liability Order would still go ahead but that if you paid £103.00 per month with effect from 5 November 2015, that no further action would be taken.

The Liability Order was granted by the Magistrates at Sefton Magistrates Court, Merton Road, Bootle, on 2 November 2015. As requested I have enclosed a copy of the signed Magistrates document to show that a Liability Order was granted against you at this hearing. Due to Data Protection I have had to block out the names and addresses of other Council Tax payers from the document.

My records show that the payment due of £103.00 on 5 December 2015 was rejected by your Bank due to insufficient funds. As you failed to bring the payment up to date, the arrangement for payment was cancelled and a letter was sent to you on 12 December 2015. This letter warned that unless the account was paid in full or a new arrangement was agreed, that the Liability Order would be passed to the Council’s Enforcement Agents without further notice after 7 days.
This letter also warned of the potential fees this course of action would incur. This included a £75.00 compliance fee as soon as the Liability Order was issued to the Enforcement Agents. It also warned that there could potentially be further fees incurred of £235.00 if a visit was made by the Enforcement agent plus a further 7.5% of the debt if over £1500. These costs are in line with The Taking Control of Goods (fees) Regulations 2014.

I can see that you spoke to one of my advisors on 6 January 2016 and wished to make a payment to clear the account. Unfortunately the Debit Card you were paying with was in the name of your wife and so the advisor was unable to continue with the payment as there was no authority given by your wife. You were advised to get your wife to telephone us.

Your account was issued to Rossendales Enforcement Agents for collection of the outstanding amount of £268.50 on 12 January 2016. The compliance fee of £75.00 was incurred then.

A Debit Card payment was made to your Council Tax account, of £270.00, on 18 January 2016. Rossendales Enforcement Agents were advised of your direct payment on 3 February 2016. My advisor tried to telephone you on 3 February 2016 but unfortunately was unable to make contact. A message was left on your message service to confirm that the Enforcement Agents had been informed of your payment but that you were liable to pay the fees of £75.00 also. You were advised to discuss the matter with the Enforcement Agents.

I am satisfied that the fees have been incurred correctly to your account and so am not prepared to suspend action on your case. I would therefore advise you to contact Rossendales Enforcement Agents immediately to discuss payment.

If you have any further queries please contact my office.

Yours sincerely

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#27 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 08 Mar 2016 12:10

The interesting part to me is I did try to pay the whole amount in full on the 6th Jan, before it had been passed for enforcement, but was refused as it was my wifes debit card. Even though she is named on the account too. Pretty bizarre.

nightowl
Posts: 8
Joined: 27 Oct 2015 01:05

#28 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by nightowl » 09 Mar 2016 00:52

Mark1960 wrote:I personally wouldn't rely on any of the templates you have purchased-They are little more than the (incorrect) opinions of one individual.

The bottom line is that your car is at risk. I've known some bailiffs to clamp a car and others to leave it. There are a couple of PCN cases on going at present where the debtor has paid the PCN but not the bailiff fees. It is a gamble.

It is all very well someone telling you that the bailiff can't clamp or remove your car but it isn't going to help you much if he does, is it?

Just one word-Bailiffs rarely re-attend when they say they are going to. They normally threaten to, hoping that you will pay before the return visit.
If these templates are unreliable, why are they are being sold on DWB?

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#29 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 09 Mar 2016 06:22

Why are you asking me? Am I anything to do with DWB?

Why don't you concentrate on advising the debtor? the crank is telling the OP that payments will have been divided, which she knows is not true because she has been reading this thread. Why is she lying to the OP?

It appears that the council have not followed statutory procedure in this case. The debt is PIF and has not been divided-Can the bailiff enforce for his fees or not?

Given that the council has not followed procedure, they cannot now expect the debtor to can they? You don't cherry pick which bits of procedure you follow and which bits you ignore. Once the procedure is breached by the people who instigated the procedure, then surely all subsequent action will be null and void?

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#30 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 09 Mar 2016 06:53

How would I word that to the council Mark?
Any chance you can cobble something together for me to add to?
If ive got this then, payment of the £75 should have been subtracted when i paid the council? I have proof off Rossendales and the Council that this failed to happen. Is this correct?

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6276
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#31 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Pote Snitkin » 09 Mar 2016 08:01

This is ridiculous. You paid the debt before you were aware of the bailiff's involvement, so this payment was not under the compulsion of enforcement.

The council took 2 weeks to inform the bailiff of your payment. They claim to have left a message with your 'telephone service' - did you get this message? What number did they call?

The payment was not split as it was not proceeds of enforcement. The CAG board like to pretend that direct payments are split with the bailiffs but this is not the case with most councils. Read this -https://hardpressedthinker.wordpress.com/

You need to establish on what date the bailiff sent the first notice of enforcement. The £75 fee does not become due the moment the case is sent to the bailiff company but when it's received by a bailiff and NOE sent. What possible reason would there be to claim £75 before anyone has even taken the case? What costs has the bailiff incurred before that stage?

The bailiff cannot charge more fees for trying to claim earlier fees only, that is ridiculous and has been established in court.

The problem now is that the bailiff is not working under the instruction of the council. They have their money so they can wash their hands of it. It will now depend on how aggressive the bailiff is but they would be stupid to try to enforce.

On the CAG forum you will be told to pay up. This is even more so as there is one particular member (Bailiff Advice aka tomtubby aka Milo aka Herbie21 aka many more usernames) who has a sad vendetta against this site, and she maintains tight control on her band of lackeys - brassnecked, renegadeimp, wonkeydonkey, and her favourite chimp Dodgeball, a particularly ill-educated troll. Thankfully the group is getting smaller due to the work of this forum but these last few are sticking like limpets.

The board also had several resident bailiffs advising you must pay up - HCEOs, Grumpytosaytheleast, and josephbloggs, an ex used car salesman with a history of aggressive behaviour.

I've got no comment on the templates as I've never seen them although I will say that in the past Jason has been mistaken in some interpretations of legislation. He remains solely responsible for the content of them - others on here such as Mark, Andy, Monkeynuts and myself give our time for free.
On 25/07/17, Dodgeball said "Telling the truth isn’t slander, in fact, it wouldn’t be slander anyway, as that is verbal not written. Liable is the word you are looking for." Discuss.

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#32 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 09 Mar 2016 08:18

Thanks for the post.
Bailiff is very aggressive type. Not prepared to listen to reason.
Never got any message on my phone.
Thanks for heads up over board politics.
Will try and find date if first letter. Submitted complaint to council anyway to become a pain in the arse.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#33 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mark1960 » 09 Mar 2016 08:40

Try to hold fire untill tonight. I'll draft you a proper complaint when I get home around tea timeish.

Just keep the car hidden just in case. Do not speak to the bailiff. If he calls you, just politely advise him that the matter is now subject of a formal complaint and that you have been advised not to speak with him untill the matter is resolved.

I Suspect that you will recieve a pm from the crank at some point. She will be of no help to you whatsoever. Ultimately it's your choice what to do but you might want to ask the crank to provide you with evidence of any cases where she has actually got enforcement stopped or fees removed. it has been suggested that she receives commission from the bailiff companies by leading debtors to them.

Chill out and enjoy your day we can sort this quite quickly tonight

Mag1nMc
Posts: 40
Joined: 07 Mar 2016 15:29

#34 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Mag1nMc » 09 Mar 2016 08:55

Thanks Mark.

Appreciate that.

M

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6276
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#35 Re: Bailiff enforcement visit when debt has been paid.

Post by Pote Snitkin » 09 Mar 2016 09:53

To prove the point, here is the advice from CAG this morning:
You should have paid the £75 in with the payment or paid it direct to Rossers


imho they are entitled to the Enforcement fee as you failed to pay the Compliance fee that meant the LO was not satisfied under the Regulations that mandates pro rata payments to the bailiff from the council of any monies paid directly, thus closing any loophole.


BA can explain this in more detail.
How 'should' you have paid the £75 if you didn't know it was due? You paid before you were aware of the bailiff's involvement.

The LO (liability order) has been fully satisfied as you have paid the amount stated on it. The LO does not, never has and never will include bailiff fees. Absolutely appalling advice.

And to prove the point further, the advice given by this bonehead is to hand over £310 to the bailiff even though they never enforced the debt. :o
On 25/07/17, Dodgeball said "Telling the truth isn’t slander, in fact, it wouldn’t be slander anyway, as that is verbal not written. Liable is the word you are looking for." Discuss.

Post Reply