Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Tell us how you beat the bailiffs.
User avatar
Schedule 12
Posts: 13265
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Location: London WC2
Contact:

#36 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 12 Mar 2016 12:22

Do the section 14, and everything that follows is invalid.
Run this Checklist. If no joy, then we'll fix it
Author: dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#37 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 12 Mar 2016 14:46

Are you sure this relates to debtors?
14

Proceedings invalid where accused did not know of them

(1)Where a summons has been issued under section 1 above and a magistrates’ court has begun to try the information to which the summons relates, then, if—

(a)the accused, at any time during or after the trial, makes a statutory declaration that he did not know of the summons or the proceedings until a date specified in the declaration, being a date after the court has begun to try the information; and
I'd hardly call a debtor "the accused"

What do you think "section 1 above" refers to? I'd hazard a guess that it means Section 1 of the act wouldn't you? Here is what Section 1 states:

1Issue of summons to accused or warrant for his arrest.


[F1(1)

On an information being laid before a justice of the peace that a person has, or is suspected of having, committed an offence, the justice may issue—

(a)a summons directed to that person requiring him to appear before a magistrates' court to answer the information, or
(b)a warrant to arrest that person and bring him before a magistrates' court.]

(2)

(3)No warrant shall be issued under this section unless the information is in writing F3. . . .

(4)No warrant shall be issued under this section for the arrest of any person who has attained [F4 the age of 18 years] unless—
(a)the offence to which the warrant relates is an indictable offence or is punishable with imprisonment, or
(b)the person’s address is not sufficiently established for a summons to be served on him.

(5)

(6)Where the offence charged is an indictable offence, a warrant under this section may be issued at any time notwithstanding that a summons has previously been issued.

(7)A justice of the peace may issue a summons or warrant under this section upon an information being laid before him notwithstanding any enactment requiring the information to be laid before two or more justices.
The heading of Part 1 alone should have given you a clue:
Criminal Jurisdiction and Procedure

Jurisdiction to issue process and deal with charges
Luckily, on this occasion, your incorrect advice has only cost the debtor a fiver. Hopefully, he will have enough common sense to realise that nothing will be "invalid" as you put it. I don't know how many times this has to happen before you accept your limitations on the understanding of law but if you have any morals whatsoever, you really do need to consider your approach to all of this.

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#38 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 12 Mar 2016 15:36

Ok.... So.... I'm screwed then??

Nothing I have done changes the LO from being valid so every charge although questionable sort of still stands.

So at the moment I'm waiting for the Bailiff to turn up and holding out for his response to the SD is pointless as it's worthless?

What exactly do I do now?

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#39 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 12 Mar 2016 16:18

I thought we'd sorted all this out last night?

outlawipcc
Posts: 308
Joined: 06 Apr 2013 17:31

#40 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by outlawipcc » 12 Mar 2016 19:51

Don't want to add any further confusion but the Magistrates' Courts Rules 1981 ("this link") provides at Rule 99 "Service of summons":
Service of summons, etc

99.–(1) Service of a summons issued by a justice of the peace on a person other than a corporation may be effected--
  • (a) by delivering it to the person to whom it is directed; or

    (b) by leaving it for him with some person at his last known or usual place of abode; or

    (c) by sending it by post in a letter addressed to him at his last known or usual place of abode.
(2) If the person summoned fails to appear, service of a summons in manner authorised by sub-paragraph (b) or (c) of paragraph (1) shall not be treated as proved unless it is proved that the summons came to his knowledge; and for that purpose any letter or other communication purporting to be written by him or on his behalf in such terms as reasonably to justify the inference that the summons came to his knowledge shall be admissible as evidence of that fact;

Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to any summons in respect of a summary offence served in the manner authorised by the said sub-paragraph (c) in a registered letter or by recorded delivery service.

(3)....
I'm unsure how much of this, if any, is still applicable, but someone might verify whether it is.

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#41 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 14 Mar 2016 15:02

I have just had a response from my initial complaint to the council a week ago..


Thank you for your recent email.



Firstly, I apologise that you are not satisfied with the service which you have received by North Somerset Council regarding this matter. All our employees have been trained to deliver a high standard of customer service and I am disappointed that you do not feel you received this.



Local Authorities have a duty to collect Council Tax in respect of all domestic properties. However, there are circumstances where this will not always be possible, for example where the liable person moves out of a property but does not provide any details to the Local Authority concerned. I would also like to take this opportunity to advise you that as a resident in a property the onus is on you to advise the Council of any information regarding your occupation and vacation of a dwelling in order for you to be charged Council Tax as soon as practicable.


As previously advised your account was closed on 7 January 2016, when we were informed that a new tenant had moved in to OLD ADDRESS on 24 July 2015. If you can provide proof that you advised us in May 2015 that you vacated OLD ADDRESS then we can certainly look at this matter again for you.



Upon further investigation I can see that our benefits department were aware of your forwarding address of; NEW ADDRESS on 7 November 2015.



I am unable to discuss someone else’s account with **

I can find no record of a colleague advising you that this was North Somerset Councils mistake and that the debt was not yours or should not have been passed to JBW. Please provide the date and time of the telephone call and the number which you called from and we can investigate this further for you.



I note your comments advising that you did not receive the summons. In accordance with Council Tax regulations a notice is deemed to have been served by either;



- Delivering it to him, or

- By leaving it at his proper address, or

- By sending it by post to him at his proper address



‘Proper address’ is defined in the regulations as the last known address. Council Tax legislation provides that a summons may be served by sending it by post to the usual or last known place of abode. If a summons is served by post then service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, prepaying and posting a letter containing the summons. Unless the contrary is proved, the summons is deemed to have been served when the notice would have been delivered by the normal course of post. Legislation also provides that in view of the above, it will be open to the person on whom the notices should have been served to prove that service did not take place.



Therefore as OLD ADDRESS was your last known address at the time the summons was issued and the document had not been returned to us as undelivered by the post office, the summons has been issued legally and correctly.



As above, if you maintain that you informed us of your change of address prior to the summons being issued on 14 September 2015, please provide evidence in order for this to be investigated further.



The Liability Order obtained on 9 October 2015 is not void. As explained above the summons was issued to your last known address at the time and in the absence of the summons notice being returned as undelivered by Royal Mail it is deemed to have been served correctly.



I can clarify that the compliance fee of £75.00 was incurred by JBW Enforcement Agents on 1 November 2015, before we were aware that you were no longer occupying the property. As above, this action has been taken on your last known address and the compliance fee of £75.00 remains payable to JBW.



I can confirm that JBW issued notice of enforcement to OLD ADDRESS on 15 October 2015 which was the correct address we held for you at that time.



JBW were informed of your current address on 8 February 2016. I must advise that a notice of enforcement letter was therefore issued to you at your current address on 8 February 2016 advising that your case had been passed to the Enforcement team.



An Enforcement Agent then visited you on 9 March 2016, due to an outstanding balance of on your account. As the enforcement agent has visited you an enforcement fee of £235.00 has been incurred, therefore the fee has been incurred correctly and remains payable in full to JBW.



In reference to your comments regarding Regulation 3 of The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 I can confirm that you are liable for Council for the period of 14 November 2014 until 23 June 2015 and you are not being charged Council Tax for a period in which you are not liable. I can confirm that your liability reflects the information provided in your tenancy agreement.



I trust this provides you with all the information which you require, however if you wish to continue to dispute the legalities of the actions taken on your account by the Council I would strongly suggest that you seek independent legal advice.



I can confirm that I have held any action with JBW until 24 March 2016 to allow you chance to contact them and discuss repayment.



I trust this is in order.

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#42 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 14 Mar 2016 16:03

She states that the £75 charge was given after the bailiff visit where enforcement notice was given

And then that the £235 charge was added when they visited on the 9th March as I had an outstanding balance.

However the council tax bill was cleared in full and confirmed it was 5 days prior to this.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#43 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 14 Mar 2016 16:45

I told you exactly what to do, over the weekend. The councils response has simply reinforced this.

She is incorrect here:
I can confirm that JBW issued notice of enforcement to OLD ADDRESS on 15 October 2015 which was the correct address we held for you at that time.
It doesn't matter what address the council had, the NOE does not fall under council tax legislation. You were legally entitled to have been given 7 clear days notice. You were not given this and until you were, JBW should not have escalated it to the enforcement stage. I posted you a link to these regulations over the weekend.

In addition, if the council have kept all the money, the power to use enforcement has died in any case. If the council were bothered about JBW's fees, they would have ensured that they were paid as prescribed in legislation.

You really need to read back what has already been posted, nothing has changed. You are liable for the £75 fee but you should challenge the £235 fee.

theronstar
Posts: 35
Joined: 28 Jun 2015 05:03

#44 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by theronstar » 14 Mar 2016 18:08

I in-boxed you a suggestion JThorneUK.

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#45 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 14 Mar 2016 20:00

Thanks, I will have a good read tomorrow.

Just a joke how she can even email saying the £235 fee was added before the £75 and then again that I'm
Being charged because the bailiff visited my address..

outlawipcc
Posts: 308
Joined: 06 Apr 2013 17:31

#46 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by outlawipcc » 14 Mar 2016 21:13

outlawipcc wrote:Don't want to add any further confusion but the Magistrates' Courts Rules 1981 ("this link") provides at Rule 99 "Service of summons":
Service of summons, etc

99.–(1) Service of a summons issued by a justice of the peace on a person other than a corporation may be effected--
  • (a) by delivering it to the person to whom it is directed; or

    (b) by leaving it for him with some person at his last known or usual place of abode; or

    (c) by sending it by post in a letter addressed to him at his last known or usual place of abode.
(2) If the person summoned fails to appear, service of a summons in manner authorised by sub-paragraph (b) or (c) of paragraph (1) shall not be treated as proved unless it is proved that the summons came to his knowledge; and for that purpose any letter or other communication purporting to be written by him or on his behalf in such terms as reasonably to justify the inference that the summons came to his knowledge shall be admissible as evidence of that fact;

Provided that this paragraph shall not apply to any summons in respect of a summary offence served in the manner authorised by the said sub-paragraph (c) in a registered letter or by recorded delivery service.

(3)....
I'm unsure how much of this, if any, is still applicable, but someone might verify whether it is.
An example of the justice system, eroding away the citizen's rights:

Sub paragraph (h) of rule 3 of the Magistrates' Courts (Miscellaneous Amendments) Rules 1993:
(h) paragraph (2) of rule 99 shall be omitted;

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#47 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 15 Mar 2016 11:55

My response..

Any opinions before I send it?


Formal Complaint-Stage 1

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your response, However yet again you have failed to answer my direct questions and I do not accept your response as being sufficient.

The property in question (OLD ADDRESS) is a Housing Association property, I was placed in this property by North Somerset and claimed benefits while living their through the North Somerset Council Housing benefits system, as is the new tenant who moved in during July 2015. I am unsure why you are stating that my account was closed on the 7th January 2016 when all claims for benefits stopped in May 2015, and North Somerset Council were the ones to initiate this after receiving notification from me that I was moving out. Further more you state that the Housing Benefit Department were aware of my new address at the latest 7th November 2015. Even though they were written to in May 2015 and actively stopped my benefits claim due to this.

I ask what prompted North Somerset to stop my Benefits claim and to place another tenant in the properly a month later if they (as you claim) were unaware of me moving out?

I contacted North Somerset on 15th February 2015 at 14:32 from mobile number 0771234567 and me and my partner spoke with your advisor. We were clearly told that this was a mistake, she could see what happened and that when the final bill was recalculated in January 2016 it should have been taken back from JBW. That we should not worry and that it would be sorted out. In further calls that day we were also told that the bill was only in a bill stage, not a reminder and we were concerned that we were leaving on holiday that day and asked if I had the time to get the letter from the Housing Association to prove when I moved out and then pay the bill. We were told that would not be an issue.

The telephone calls are recorded and I ask that you listen back to this and inform me of your findings.

‘Proper address’ is defined in the regulations as the last known address. Council Tax legislation provides that a summons may be served by sending it by post to the usual or last known place of abode. If a summons is served by post then service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, prepaying and posting a letter containing the summons. Unless the contrary is proved, the summons is deemed to have been served when the notice would have been delivered by the normal course of post. Legislation also provides that in view of the above, it will be open to the person on whom the notices should have been served to prove that service did not take place.

You have proof that I no longer lived at the address the notice was served too, I have proven that it was impossible for me to have received the summons and have proven that service did not take place. Why are you disputing this when all the proof has been given?

In addition I have also attended North Somerset Court house and have a signed Statutory Declaration (previously supplied) stating that I was unaware that I had been a defendant in a proceeding in a magistrates court ("the Proceeding") involving the application for a liability order under regulation 34 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992.

I dispute that the £75 compliance fee issued on 1st November is valid for the reasons stated above. North Somerset Council were aware I had left the property.

You state that " I can confirm that JBW issued notice of enforcement to old adress, Weston-Super-Mare, BS24 XXX on 15 October 2015 which was the correct address we held for you at that time."
How is it possible for JBW to issue a notice of enforcement prior to the £75 compliance fee?

I wish to make it very clear, right from the outset, that at no time have I attempted to evade paying this debt. As the council acknowledge, as soon as I was made aware of the debt I contacted North Somerset Council to be told that once I provided proof of my tenancy the bill would be recalculated. When I then subsequently received the correct bill for the period I lived in the property, I contacted the council and made payment in full. It should be emphasised that the payment was made prior to any Bailiffs visiting the property and to this day I have still not received a breakdown of any charges, notifications of the charges or a Notice Of Enforcement. No Notice of Enforcement has ever been issued to me, Either at my old address or my partners address (New Address) An Enforcement Agent did visit on the 9th March however there was no outstanding balance on my account.

You are stating that at this point, after the debt had been paid in full, with a £0 balance outstanding and both North Somerset Council and JBW Group acknowledging this that "As the enforcement agent has visited you an enforcement fee of £235.00 has been incurred, therefore the fee has been incurred correctly and remains payable in full to JBW. " This is not the case.

I would like to remind you of Regulation 45 of the Council Tax (Enforcement & Administration) Regulations 1992 (as amended) A&ER), which states:

"Where a liability order has been made, payment may be enforced by using the Schedule 12 procedure.”

Regulations also state that the amount in respect of which a liability order is made is enforceable. As the amount had been paid in full, the power to enforce had died. A debtor cannot be made bankrupt in respect of bailiff fees, he cannot be committed to prison and he cannot have a charging order made against him. Nor, crucially can enforcement continue, once the LO is settled. Schedule 12 provides the facility to divide payments pro-rata but it appears that the councils contract with JBW Group permits all payments made directly to the council, to be kept by the council. It is unreasonable and also unrealistic to expect JBW Group to be permitted to continue to enforce under these circumstances.

Further more when the Bailiff visited my partners property on the 9th March not only was he aggressive, and threatening towards myself and my partner, he refused to provide me with any paperwork, or his Bailiff Certificate of Enforcement, he would not give me his name when I told him I wished to make a complaint against him and his behaviour. Whilst at my property he contacted JBW Group and whilst on loud speaker JBW Group confirmed the £0 balance outstanding and stated that the charges would have to be removed. The Bailiff then again refused to give me any reference numbers, paperwork or his name, he told me he didn't have to prove anything to me, he squared up to me very aggressively and stepped inside my house, I asked what he was doing and why would he not leave when I had just heard his office tell him that the charges would need to be removed and he was to leave the property he then ran up my drive, got into his van and drive off up the road whilst still on the phone and without putting on his seat belt.

I have since discovered that he is using the name Darren Carter, however upon checking the Certificated Enforcement Agent Register his name does not appear and I have been advised to report this to the police as an offence under section 63(6) of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

I feel that I have been let down by the council from start to finish in this matter. Having obtained all money owed, the council have turned its back on us. Whilst I understand the bailiffs actions are an issue I need to and will be taking up directly with JBW Group and the Courts I am disappointed that North Somerset Council are directly responsible for me being exposed to this situation and the fact that North Somerset are in support of JBW group and their actions is appalling!

As a resolution to this complaint, I ask that the council accept that enforcement is no longer lawful and request that JBW Group close the case.

I repeat that I have battled to pay this debt from start to finish as soon as I was made aware and have never ignored it!

Finally, I ask that you extend the hold for a more appropriate period of time giving North Somerset Council time needed to respond to my formal complaint and myself the time needed to continue my legal advice based upon your response. I ask for the hold to be extended to 7th April 2016.

Regards

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#48 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 15 Mar 2016 13:02

As soon as the council passed the debt to JBW, the £75 fee became due. Part of the compliance stage involves giving a notice of enforcement. Untill the debtor has received this and had the opportunity to contact the bailiff company, they cannot escalate the case to the enforcement stage

Remember that unlike the summons, the NOE must go to your usual address, NOT your last known address

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#49 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 15 Mar 2016 13:10

Updated It to state that, and its been sent... have to see what they come back with this time, but I get the impression it will be more fob offs... it will then come down to if or not JBW can collect and enforce the fees with how its left.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#50 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 15 Mar 2016 16:07

I don't think you have a leg to stand on regarding the compliance fee. I think you have an excellent argument regarding the enforcement fee and you should continue if and when the council try to fob you off.

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#51 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 15 Mar 2016 16:59

That I will except, although I did check time and time again on the online portal (how they tell you to do it) and the balance never changed from £0. I was aware that some money would be owed.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#52 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 15 Mar 2016 17:10

jthorneuk wrote:That I will except, although I did check time and time again on the online portal (how they tell you to do it) and the balance never changed from £0. I was aware that some money would be owed.
You left no forwarding address, you didn't subscribe to a postal forwarding scheme and you made no contact with the council, despite admitting you owed them money. It doesn't look very good does it?

Many people make the mistake of thinking that the onus is on the council to locate a missing debtor. I'm not saying that you did but as you have discovered, the onus is on the debtor to provide the council with a forwarding address. I wonder if you'd have contacted the council rather than just relying on the website, if you knew that it was going to cost you more in the long run?

It can prove a costly mistake, again as you are discovering and the experience is not pleasant. Receiving a bailiff visit is never going to be a party on the beach. No end of people complain that a bailiff was aggressive etc. These complaints never get anywhere and are just considered part of the procedure-Its not as though a creditor or bailiff company is sitting back with baited breath, waiting for a debtor to write in complimenting them on forcing a payment.

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#53 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 15 Mar 2016 17:56

Whilst I do take responsibility for part of this, my girlfriend moved out of a council owned property paid for by the council into my house, no forwarding address was ever asked for and we called multiple times to request the final bill after April, the bill was never done until July.

The have an online portal, the only way you can contact them, you can't call to speak to anybody, you can leave a message for them to call back within 48 hours. The online portal which we were refuted too every time said and still says £0.

Lessened learned to provide a forwarding address regardless if there is a bill outstanding or not.

And she did have mail redirection on, but the bill never came until that expired.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#54 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 15 Mar 2016 18:14

With mail redirection of course, there would have been a reminder notice and a final demand notice.

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#55 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 15 Mar 2016 18:55

Yes, but redirection only Paod for to last 3 months, the bill wasn't generated by the council until after that. Then reminders and so on followed in the months after.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#56 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 15 Mar 2016 19:24

A reminder will follow on around 2 weeks after the account defaults (all councils have very, very slightly different timescales) If you defaulted in May, you would have had a reminder around the 10th-21st June, giving you 7 days to bring the account up to date. As you didn't, you would have had a final notice a couple of weeks later. That would have given you 7 days to pay the account in full, otherwise court proceedings would commence.

The system is harsh but fool proof. It won't be just one notice that the debtor fails to act upon, but a chain of notices. On reflection, you have to take full responsibility. Your mistake was that you didn't realise that CT was a priority debt, as opposed to something like water rates, gas, electricity etc.

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#57 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 15 Mar 2016 20:22

She moved out at the end of May, no bill had been generated as prior to this it was full benefits, the council then never billed the property at all till the end of July, it then never defaulted on payment until August, final reminder, taken to court September,

She handed the keys back middle of May, but had to pay rent for a further month from own pocket. Direct was on for 3 months from mid May to July, no bill was ever raised in that period, let alone going to reminder or any further stages after that.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#58 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 15 Mar 2016 20:41

In order to have received benefit, she would have needed to have been billed. Councils don't "forget" to send bills out. If theres one thing they're good at, its getting bills out on time. I already have mine for next tax year. Also, a bill would have, had to have been issued in order for monthly payments to have been accepted

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#59 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 16 Mar 2016 08:03

Maybe I'm not explaining it right.

Because we got together she wrote letters to cancel all her benefits and to start paying full rent and full council tax from the start of May. She also handed in her notice for 4 weeks to move out st the end of May.

So the council tax bill had to be recalculated by the council to show that she had to now pay the council tax and what the payments would be.

It took the council till the end of July to do this. By that time she had not been living in the property for three months. Having given the keys back 2 months previous and all mail diverts ending.

It isn't the case that any letters or bills were ignored, they were never generated, posted or anything until 3 months after she stopped living there.

Yes we knew there would be a small amount to pay but the online portal which show the details of the bills always and still does show £0.

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#60 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 16 Mar 2016 09:49

Okay-that makes sense.

The Big issue is the dispute over whether you told them that you were leaving.

Try talking to them and explain it as per your latest post. If you weren't billed, it was impossible to pay.

You Still have the problem of the onus being on you to notify of a forwarding address

theronstar
Posts: 35
Joined: 28 Jun 2015 05:03

#61 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by theronstar » 16 Mar 2016 16:35

Did you read my private message Jthorne

User avatar
Schedule 12
Posts: 13265
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Location: London WC2
Contact:

#62 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 16 Mar 2016 17:40

Ron I lost your mob number, can you text me or email jason at dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk
Run this Checklist. If no joy, then we'll fix it
Author: dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#63 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 28 Mar 2016 10:32

Almost 2 weeks on and no response what so ever from the council... Bank holiday may have restricted this though but they had 7-10 days to reply and that ended before bank holiday started.

I received an email from jbw with a photo of the bailiffs enforcement certificate attached, why he didn't just give it to me I don't know, it must have been to try and prevent me making a complaint .

Nothing from JBW about the fees or chasing them though, no texts and no bailiff, I haven't made any contact with them either so it seems the emails I sent removing their rights to access and not wanting to deal with them may have done the trick, or it's still with the bailiff and he isn't acting on it yet. Who knows...

Getting fed up with the council though, they just seem to black any emails and it seems to be more about the woman there not loosing face than answering any direct questions or complaints. Next is to go above her I guess. But not sure who to as she refused to say any manager and just directs me to write to the town hall...

Mark1960
Posts: 3813
Joined: 20 Mar 2013 11:36

#64 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 28 Mar 2016 10:40

Email JBW and tell them that you have complained about the enforcement fee as no NOE was sent to your usual address.

Telephone the council tomorrow and find out what is happening. If no joy, send a complaint marked "Stage 2 Complaint" to the CEO

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#65 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 29 Mar 2016 09:56

On the phone to the council now,
They are saying it takes them 7 days to reply, I explained it's been 14 already!

The person on the phone keeps calling through to the person dealing with it and now aparently it's on hold for about a week until they can replay,

Anybody have any templates of stage to complaints?

User avatar
Schedule 12
Posts: 13265
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Location: London WC2
Contact:

#66 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 29 Mar 2016 18:38

There is no template, but Mark is good at knocking up templates to order.

Ask that enforcement is held until they have solved your complaint.
Run this Checklist. If no joy, then we'll fix it
Author: dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk

jthorneuk
Posts: 33
Joined: 10 Mar 2016 15:16

#67 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 05 Apr 2016 19:21

So.... Finally received a reply today and it goes as follows

Few personal facts and then....


As previously confirmed your Council Tax account was closed from 7 January 2016, as we received notification that there was a new tenant in the property.

I must advise that I have listened to the telephone call you made to our office on 15 February 2016 and it is important to confirm that at no point were you or your partner informed that the action taken on your account had been a mistake and that your account should be taken back by JBW.

I can confirm that Your partner enquired if there was still a debate on whether or not your account would be withdrawn from the Enforcement Agents and was advised that the account would not be withdrawn, however JBW would be notified of your balance amendment. As your partner continued to disagree with the balance owing, he was advised to send an email in to dispute the matter including all the information and then a decision would be made.

As previously informed Council Tax legislation provides that a summons may be served by sending it by post to the usual or last known place of abode. To clarify, this means that even if you have proved you were not living at the address that the notices were issued to, the Council have issued them to the address we held for you at the time. Therefore all notice’s, including the summons were issued correctly and in accordance with Council Tax regulations.

In reference to your Statutory Declaration; we have contacted North Somerset Magistrates Court and have been informed that Statutory Declarations under Section 14 do not apply to Council Tax proceedings; therefore the declaration is invalid for these purposes. I understand that the Court will respond to you directly confirming this.

I can confirm that you first contacted us in regards to the arrears on 5 February 2016. At this stage the summons and enforcement agent costs had already been incurred.

Please be advised that Council Tax is due and payable up until any amendments are made to an account and a revised bill is issued. Once your tenancy agreement was provided and the end date of your account was amended to 23 June 2015, the balance was reduced and JBW were notified of the change in balance.

In reference to your comment where you advise you made payment in full prior to the Enforcement Agent visiting your property, I must advise that payment was received on 3 March 2016. The fees which were incurred by JBW Enforcement Agent were incurred as follows:
15 November 2015 - £75.00 - Compliance fee
16 December 2015 – £235.00 – Enforcement fee

I would like to advise that all visits from the Enforcement Agents are recorded and due to your complaint I have listened to the recording of Mr Carters visit to your property on 9 March 2016. I can confirm that the Enforcement Agent introduced himself to you and advised you of the reason of his visit.

I must advise that I heard Your partner telling the Enforcement Agent that the fees were not recoverable and that JBW would need a warrant to collect the fees as they are not covered by the original Liability Order. The Enforcement Agent advises that North Somerset Council secured a Liability Order for the arrears and the fees have been incurred correctly on your account and remain outstanding. I do not feel that the Enforcement Agent was aggressive or threatening at all and based on the recording it was actually Your partner who came across in this manner.

In reference to you informing us that the Enforcement Agent does not appear on the Certificated Enforcement Agent Register, I understand that JBW have now provided you with the Enforcement Agents certificate.

I can confirm that taking everything into consideration, I have discussed your account with JBW and they have agreed to waiver the Enforcement Agents fees on this occasion. I would therefore like to advise that your account has now been settled in full and no further action will be taken.



And that's that!!

But they do argue stupid points because I questioned the dates they they told me the fees were added and then they have come back now giving different dates. They didn't answer any of the direct questions and yes the bailiff advised me the charges had been added but that does not mean they were added correctly..

This response was in headed paper and from a different member of staff. I think the previous one got in way over her head and passed it on.

So it goes to show.. Stick to your guns and don't let them bully you into paying something that you don't need to. From my first call I was told to pay nearly £1400 for a bill and bailiff charges. The end result was £250 odd and no bailiff charges.

They just had to have a rant and try and have the last word though. I could continue to complain and argue but the matter is now dealt with. I will however get in writing the acceptance of a new address in the future!

User avatar
Schedule 12
Posts: 13265
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Location: London WC2
Contact:

#68 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Schedule 12 » 05 Apr 2016 19:47

Its nothing to do with "waiving their fees". There were never due in the first place because they did not use the Schedule 12 procedure.
I can confirm that JBW issued notice of enforcement to OLD ADDRESS on 15 October 2015
So JBW cheated by ambushing you at your new address without giving a notice as required by Paragraph 7(1) of Schedule 12.

They lost £310.
Run this Checklist. If no joy, then we'll fix it
Author: dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk

Post Reply