Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

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jthorneuk
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#1 Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 10 Mar 2016 15:58

Hi, I really hope somebody can help me...

To cut a long story short.

My Girlfriend came off benefits last April when we got together and this removed her council tax benefit.
In May 29th she handed her notice in and moved out of the property leaving it empty. The house sat empty till June 22nd.

We knew she would have to pay a small amount of council tax for the April and May but the online account showed a balance of £0. (It still does) and multiple calls to the council said the bill was still being generated.

Fast forward to January 2016, we had a bill through to my address saying that we owed £309 council tax for the property and that we had moved out the end of July. 4 weeks after the notice ended and 8 weeks after we actually left.
Girlfriend was told that she had to get a letter from landlord, not to worry and that once she provided the move out date the bill would be recalculated and sent to us again. Contacted landlord, they said give them 3 weeks or so to do it and they would provide proof.

February 12th - received a letter from JBW saying that we owed a total of £1200 that included their fees. Contacted the council who said that what had happened is they had never processed us moving out, so had obtained a liability order in October last year for the full years amount, then in January a bailiff went to the old house and added on his £75 and then £235 fees. then the person their proved she was not my Girlfriend and gave our new address. so then they wrote to us and so did JBW.

we questioned why we were not told of any of this before. Why our online account still says £0 and so on. I was told that the bill raised in January was not part of a Liability order, it was not even in the reminder stage, that we could even wait 4 weeks and not pay it and nothing would happen, giving us time to get the letter from the landlord.

We then received the letter from the landlord and supplied a copy to the council. they then updated the amount owed and it was just over £200 with the £90 court charge. So we used their automated system and cleared the debt in full with them.


We have made multiple complaints to the council that we did not know anything about the council tax owed, or the court proceedings and in every response they have said we didn't provide a forwarding address so its tuff. However the debt with them is now settled.

The issue is JBW. They will not drop it and want their fees and are telling me that the council have told them to collect their fees. Even though they confirm to me its £0 balance now owed to the council.

I was told that the debt could not get any bigger and that a bailiff would not be coming out, as the council and JBW both take 7 working days to respond to anything.

Then Yesterday a Bailiff turned up at my house asking for my girlfriend. He said he was there to collect the £335 odd charges. I said I don't owe them and refused to pay, he then said that he had a van on its way to me and I would be charged £110 more for the van to remove goods. I said that he had no legal right to remove any goods as the liability order is for north somerset council to collect their debt and he cant just tag off the back of it. He then got aggressive and threatened me with a pay me the money or else. I then asked for his name and bailiff number and he refused to give it to me. I asked him to leave my property and he refused. I then said call your boss, he put me on speaker phone and I explained the entire situation to his boss. his boss said I have a fair point and that he would ask the bailiff to withdraw, the bailiff then snatched his phone out of my hand and I heard him being told that they would likely have to cancel the fees and for him to leave, but he could not get the phone off speaker phone. I again asked him for his name and he started to run up my drive away from me. I followed him asking for his name and he got in his car, no seat belt, still on the phone and drove off.

SO today I called up JBW to complain and find out what is now going on. I told the bailiff yesterday and put it in writing to them that I have made a statutory declaration to the magistrates court to make the original liability order invalid as I have proof I had know knowledge of It but this takes 2 weeks to sort out. I got fobbed off again and again eventually got the bailiffs name. I did a search on the database and cant find him as a registered bailiff. I then asked for a manager to call me back, they didn't so I was told 3 times on the phone to pay the fees and every time told a manager should ring me back. I then got put through to the Bailiff, he was rude, told me I have until 5 to pay or else he is coming with a van to take goods. I asked him why he was not on the Bailiff register, he said none of my business. He refused to give me any reference numbers and told me time and time again that he has to prove nothing, I either pay the money or else, and then he told me to ring his office and hung up on me.

SO I rung his office. I was told by them to ring him, I said he hangs up and refuses to talk to me. they then said pay up by 5pm or else he is coming with a van to collect goods. then he hung up as well.


So my questions that I need urgent help with are.

Are the fees valid and do I have to pay JBW. I have nothing from them whatsoever apart from a letter that says "your debt has been passed to an enforcement agent" at the top with a figure of £1200 odd on it.

Can he add on more fees - I was told it would never grow and that now the original debt is paid the penalties freeze.

Nothing at my address including my car is related to my Girlfriend. Although she lives there 95% of the time I paid for everything.

Now I have applied for the Liability order to be made invalid should that not make the fees invalid anyway?

Why isn't he on the
http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov ... 341904-p=2
register?

What can I do?? The council do not care, they don't respond to me and either way the debt is cleared with them as soon as it was correctly calculated.

I need help and urgently what to do if he does turn up at 5pm tonight or at a later date. How do I resolve this, I do not see why I should have to pay £300 odd fees for something that I never knew about and can prove that I didn't and that has been accepted by the council even to the point that they admit that they generated the bill finally in July after I proved I left and also the new tenant was paying council tax for the property when they also tried to bill my girlfriend for it too.

HELP.. Please...

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jasonDWB
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#2 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jasonDWB » 10 Mar 2016 16:11

You were not aware of the application for the liability order because it would have been given to your old address, but the bailiff was able to start enforcement at your new address.

An application for a liability order is a proceeding in a magistrates court, and section 14 of the Magistrates Courts Act 1980 states;

  • View outstanding changesstatus warnings
    14 Proceedings invalid where accused did not know of them.

    (1)Where a summons has been issued under section 1 above and a magistrates’ court has begun to try the information to which the summons relates, then, if—

    (a)the accused, at any time during or after the trial, makes a statutory declaration that he did not know of the summons or the proceedings until a date specified in the declaration, being a date after the court has begun to try the information; and

    (b)within 21 days of that date the declaration is served on the [F1designated officer for the court],

    without prejudice to the validity of the information, the summons and all subsequent proceedings shall be void.
    (2)For the purposes of subsection (1) above a statutory declaration shall be deemed to be duly served on the [F2designated officer] if it is delivered to him, or left at his office, or is sent in a registered letter or by the recorded delivery service addressed to him at his office.


Find out which magistrates court issued the liability order, and complete the following statutory declaration. It must ben sworn before a solicitor then given by post to the issuing court and copied to the bailiff company.

That stops everything, including the fees.

Template.

You might get excuses from employees of Court Service. Remind them they are not legally qualified to give advice. Only a Clerk of the Justices can do that. If you are rebuked by a Clerk or obstructs you giving the statutory declaration, then contact me, and I will give you a solicitor to do it for you and you can apply for costs. HM Court service pays the bill.

Give it to the police reporting an offence under section 63(6) of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.
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jthorneuk
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#3 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 10 Mar 2016 16:20

Fantastic, I have already quoted them this... on Monday directly to the council

" Before a council can send bailiffs to collect unpaid council tax, it must get a Liability Order in the magistrates court. That is classed as a "Proceeding" in a Magistrates Court and the law says if a defendant is unaware of the proceedings then they are void. Section 14 of the Magistrates Courts Act 1980.

An application has been made to the Magistrates Court with the proof that the bill was raised for an address I no longer lived at on a date that I had already moved out. This will make the Liability Order void.

The law:

Regulation 6 of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 and Paragraph 7(1) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007

The law says you must be "given" a "Notice of Enforcement" at least 7 days clear excluding Sundays and public holidays before receiving a visit from an enforcement agent.

No notice was "given" to me as you are fully aware they attended an address that I no longer lived at.


And I have just sent them this..

Dear Darren Carte and JBW Group.

Further to my telephone conversation with you Earlier today, I am now setting out my position in writing.
We both acknowledge the debt owed to the council regarding my council tax arrears has been paid in full and I state that it was always my wish and intention to pay this debt directly to the council once a correct bill was produced and the council were in agreement with this, thus avoiding any unwanted and unnecessary enforcement fees. I am aware that I am not legally obliged to deal with yourselves and would advise that on this occasion, I will not be doing so.

For the avoidance of any doubt, please take note that I do not grant your company or any agents acting on your behalf, permission to enter my home, nor do I grant permission to cross boundaries onto my property, including but not exclusively, all lawns, paths and driveways. Furthermore, please take note that as from today's date, I revoke all implied rights of access to my home under common law, for you or any agents acting on your behalf. I wish to add further that there is no vehicle owned by me or anything else of value outside my property.

I would be grateful if you would now pass this case back to the council, so that they may deal with my complaint over the handling of the matter.

jthorneuk
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#4 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 10 Mar 2016 16:21

Why isn't he on the
http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov ... 341904-p=2
register?


Give it to the police reporting an offence under section 63(6) of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.


So I am right???? he should be on that list without question??

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jasonDWB
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#5 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jasonDWB » 10 Mar 2016 16:23

jthorneuk wrote:Why isn't he on the
http://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov ... 341904-p=2
register?


Give it to the police reporting an offence under section 63(6) of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.


So I am right???? he should be on that list without question??
I can only tell you what the law says:

63Enforcement agents

(1)This section and section 64 apply for the purposes of Schedule 12.

(2)An individual may act as an enforcement agent only if one of these applies—

(a)he acts under a certificate under section 64;

(b)he is exempt;

(c)he acts in the presence and under the direction of a person to whom paragraph (a) or (b) applies.

(3)An individual is exempt if he acts in the course of his duty as one of these—

(a)a constable;

(b)an officer of Revenue and Customs;

(c)a person appointed under section 2(1) of the Courts Act 2003 (c. 39) (court officers and staff).

(4)An individual is exempt if he acts in the course of his duty as an officer of a government department.

(5)For the purposes of an enforcement power conferred by a warrant, an individual is exempt if in relation to the warrant he is a civilian enforcement officer, as defined in section 125A of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980 (c. 43).

(6)A person is guilty of an offence if, knowingly or recklessly, he purports to act as an enforcement agent without being authorised to do so by subsection (2).

(7)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.



I wouldnt bother writing to JBW with all that guff. Just give a copy of the statutory declaration as soon as you have given it into court.
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outlawipcc
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#6 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by outlawipcc » 10 Mar 2016 16:35

jthorneuk wrote:Fantastic, I have already quoted them this... on Monday directly to the council

" Before a council can send bailiffs to collect unpaid council tax, it must get a Liability Order in the magistrates court. That is classed as a "Proceeding" in a Magistrates Court and the law says if a defendant is unaware of the proceedings then they are void. Section 14 of the Magistrates Courts Act 1980....
Section 14 falls under the Criminal Jurisdiction and Procedure (laying information) as a warning just in case this does not apply to council tax (making complaint).

jthorneuk
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#7 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 10 Mar 2016 17:03

Looking at the template, it has been 31 days since I first became aware of the court proceedings, the template states 21 days

Will I have a problem with this?

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#8 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 10 Mar 2016 17:08

I have an appointment with the solicitor tomorrow at 9:30, the court is just up the road from me, can I hand deliver this?

Knowing what had happened so far with the bailiff he just won't care, what do I do if he does turn up tonight or in the future? I worry he may take my car or something but can he when it's in my name and the debt is my girlfriends?

What should I do if he knocks on the door?

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jasonDWB
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#9 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jasonDWB » 10 Mar 2016 17:35

You will need to give a reason for the delay.

You can say that you had not received legal advice until 31 days after, and upon which, you immediately made the declaration.
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jthorneuk
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#10 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 10 Mar 2016 17:45

jasonDWB wrote:You will need to give a reason for the delay.

You can say that you had not received legal advice until 31 days after, and upon which, you immediately made the declaration.
Thank you, do I need to state this in the declaration?

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jasonDWB
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#11 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jasonDWB » 10 Mar 2016 17:55

Well actually, its says "21 days of becoming aware",

You can can infer that to be 21 days of becoming aware you can make the statutory declaration.

The wording of section 14 is ambiguous.
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jthorneuk
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#12 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 10 Mar 2016 18:02

Ok, I'll leave it as is then.

Mag1nMc
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#13 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mag1nMc » 11 Mar 2016 09:28

How did you get on?
Did the bailiff turn up?

Hope it all goes well.

M

jthorneuk
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#14 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 11:58

He didn't show up.

This morning I have been to the solicitor, paid my £5 and then took the statutory declaration straight to the court house. They don't meet people but have a secure post box.

I then sent a copy to the council and jbw via email with the following attached


Dear JBW Group

As you are aware I have been having a number of issues regarding my council tax and have made an official complaint over the handling of the situation. I am still waiting to hear back from JBW Group.

The law states that:

" Before a council can send bailiffs to collect unpaid council tax, it must get a Liability Order in the magistrates court. That is classed as a "Proceeding" in a Magistrates Court and the law says if a defendant is unaware of the proceedings then they are void. Section 14 of the Magistrates Courts Act 1980."

After seeking legal advice a Statutory Declaration (attached) was prepared and submitted to North Somerset Council House this morning, the result of this declaration will render the Liability Order that was issued last October void. This will also remove any fees and any enforcement procedures relating to this Liability Order.


As the Liability Order has been made void, JBW Group fees are not enforceable and all further action or attempt to enforces the now void Liability Order must stop with immediate effect!

JBW Group must acknowledge this action and upon doing so this matter is now closed.

Regards

Mark1960
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#15 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 12:20

Just one point here that you may wish to consider:

The Law actually says that notices are deemed served if sent to the last KNOWN address. If they weren't notified of an alternative address, then the old address was the correct one. This explains why the bailiff visited there originally

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#16 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 12:29

We sent them a letter stating we were to move out, we didn't give a forwarding address as were unsure of it at the time.

Our online account still shows £0 to pay and they do everything online now, it's hassle to actually speak to anybody as they want it all done online.

I am 90% sure that in order for the bailiffs to collect their fees they need to take separate civil action against me, they don't have anything from a court to say they can collect their money, even more so now the original liability order is void.

I'm not sure what the outcome will be, and there is stil this fact that the bailiff does not appear on any register and he refuses to give me his certificate or any information other than his first and last name.

With any luck they will response and that will be the end of it.

I am under the impression that if he turnes up there is nothing he can do or take as this is my address and my car and besides there is no legal thing to make me pay the fees unless he takes civil action for them??

Am I wrong? Am I giving myself false hope? Every email or letter takes them 10 working days to reply

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#17 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 12:34

The Original LO is not void. LO's do not suddenly become void and it would take something like a judicial review to get one overturned.

If you did not advise them of a forwarding address then everything they have done is lawful.

You may be able to challenge the enforcement fee but you will have to pay the compliance fee, along with whatever the council agree is owed in tax

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#18 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 12:47

When I finally knew anything about this it was January this year, a bill arrived at my address for my gf and it stated a period of time living at our previous address, we called and said we didn't live there then, they said get proof of when u moved out, we will adjust the bill then pay that. We told them we needed 3 weeks as landlord said it would take that for him to do a letter. Then 2 weeks later we got the first bailiff letter and first we knew of any enforcement or LO. The figure was for £1000 more than we eventually owed and this was because they had take us to court for a LO for the entire year. It took a further week to get the bill corrected to what we actually owed, even though the councils online system still says £0. We then paid the bill as soon as it was correct and owe the council £0.

Then 3 days later a bailiff turned up to collect their fees and I refused to pay them.

It was my understanding that when the declaration was made to the magistrates court this would make the LO void as per the quotes above, we can't be held responsible for it when we didn't know anything about it.

The council have even said that the first letter that was sent to us as the old address was sent 1 month after we moved and also that the new tenant had started to pay the council tax before they took is for the LO. They have admitted more than once it was their mistake but they refuse to talk now and JBW are saying we have to pay their fees.

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#19 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 13:31

You Can be held responsible as you never left them a forwarding address. The Law is in place to protect the council in exactly this type of situation. This is why they are permitted to send the summons etc to your last known address.

Can you imagine the chaos if it were down to councils to locate a debtor, every time someone moved house?

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#20 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 13:45

I did leave an address and told them we had moved out, then phoned 3 times to ask for the bill and checked out online account repeatedly.

They didn't process the move out correctly until January 2016, 8 months after we moved and told them so...

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#21 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 15:00

Well you really need to focus on finding out why the council failed to register your new address. Unfortunately the SD will have been a waste of your time-There is no dispute that you did not receive paperwork and the council will accept that it was sent to your last known address.

The fact that the baiuliff also visited the previous address suggests that it certainly wasn't known that you'd moved. I can see this turning out to be your word against theirs.

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#22 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 15:31

I'm confused then as to why the original advice was to do a SD as this would make the LO void?

What are you saying? That I have to pay the fees as they can take goods to the value?

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#23 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 15:44

I'm saying that if you notified the council of a change of address but they still sent documents to the previous one, then this is the issue that you need to concentrate on, no to be relying on SD's that will be of no assistance to you.

I've also mentioned that there is a possibility that you could challenge the enforcement fee as the notice of enforcement falls under different requirements to the notices sent by the council.

Council tax notices must be sent as per this piece of legislation:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1972/70/section/233
In other words, they may be sent to the debtors last known address if a forwarding address has not been given.

The notice of enforcement however must be sent to a debtors usual address, as per this piece of legislation:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013 ... ion/8/made

If you haven't correct received a notice of enforcement, you could argue that the enforcement stage cannot begin until the NOE has been sent correctly.

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#24 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 15:56

Ok, I get what your saying, I have never received anything off the council to say anything, no notices or anything and only a white paper bill in January that I was told by them was not even a reminder, was not part of a LO and I could wait 4 weeks without paying and it would have no effect.

From the Bailiffs I received one letter saying I owed £1200 odd that included the £235 and £75 free. Nothing more since.

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#25 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 16:04

Now that you have filed that SD, I would let it run its course.

Would you be prepared to pay the £75 fee if we can get the £235 removed?

I will say that we've never tried this before so there are no precedents. I envisage the bailiff company to object to having the fee removed and that the council will just go with what the bailiffs say.

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#26 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 17:05

Just got a text from JBW so I called them, they say it's still with the bailiff and he will come out st any time, that it's the council saying for them to collect their fees.. Rang the council they say they don't care at all, they have their money and we have to talk to the bailiffs.

So one is saying talk to council they are driving this, the other is saying talk to bailiffs.. They are..

Council say they won't answer till Monday.. Do bailiffs work weekends? Do I have to worry my car is going to go?

If he comes again he has to knock on the door surly? He can't just tow my car ? Baring in mind this is my address and not my gf

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#27 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 18:41

As I am reading this, it is your partner who has this debt. Your name was not on the council tax bill, not on the LO and not on the NOE. The debt is nothing to do with you.

A bailiff may only take control of goods belonging to the debtor. Provided that your partner isn't named or insured to drive the car, it would be very difficult to claim that the vehicle belonged to her. The attached document is that of a judges opinion in this circumstance. Bailiffs and their supporters do like to tell people that spouses goods may be controlled-This judge clearly doesn't agree. How much is your car worth?

If you don't let him in and your partner has nothing of value outside, the bailiff will not be able to do anything anyway. Have the council confirmed that they have kept all the money you paid and have offset it against the original debt and the LO costs?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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#28 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 18:52

The council have confirmed that there is £0 debt with them and all of the money went to clear the council tax and the £90 fee for the LO.

They say it's nothing to do with them and they are satisfied

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#29 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 18:54

My girlfriend is insured to drive my car though. And yes all of this is in her name.

Mark1960
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#30 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 19:11

I'm sure the council are satisfied. The only trouble is, that they have breached legislation. According to many, including various councils and HMCTS, the council were obliged to divide any payment they received from you, with JBW. As they haven't done so, there is no power remaining with the LO, so consequently, no power to use enforcement.

I would be inclined to send the bailiff a txt. Debt settled in full. Power of liability order is now dead. Any subsequent enforcement action would be illegal, NOE not issued in accordance with legislation in any case. Complaint now in with council. Please do not return until matter is resolved.

jthorneuk
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#31 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 19:17

I would but, other than his name I have no contact details for him at all, he won't tell me anything and calls on a withheld number and hung up on me.

Mark1960
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#32 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 19:32

Well phone JBW up now then and tell them. Ask that a record of your request to suspend enforcement is recorded on your case file.

Theres not much more you can do until Monday. Have a read of the mag1nMc thread just below yours. His arguments are very similar. Have a look at the complaint I drafted for him and use what is relevant to you to draft another one out for yourself. In addition, add that the NOE has not been served correctly and quote the relevant legislation. Ask that enforcement be placed on hold until the matter is resolved.

Be very careful with your car.

jthorneuk
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#33 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 19:50

On will do.

Are they likely to clamp it or tow it... Over £300? Where do I stand if I find something has happened to it?

Mark1960
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#34 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by Mark1960 » 11 Mar 2016 20:26

He's more likely to try clamping. He doesn't really want to waste time on a removal, he justs wants to try to force you to pay. Many bailiffs don't like working weekends and those that do will want to focus on easy targets. You are putting up a fight so hopefully, he won't turn up.

If your car is clamped, you will be faced with the choice of being deprived of your vehicle whilst a complaint goes in or paying up and trying to reclaim. This is much harder than if you are holding the money. I would just hide it over the weekend, for peace of mind.

jthorneuk
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#35 Re: Urgent Help with Bailiffs Fees

Post by jthorneuk » 11 Mar 2016 20:44

Mark1960 wrote:He's more likely to try clamping. He doesn't really want to waste time on a removal, he justs wants to try to force you to pay. Many bailiffs don't like working weekends and those that do will want to focus on easy targets. You are putting up a fight so hopefully, he won't turn up.

If your car is clamped, you will be faced with the choice of being deprived of your vehicle whilst a complaint goes in or paying up and trying to reclaim. This is much harder than if you are holding the money. I would just hide it over the weekend, for peace of mind.

This maybe quite hard as have 3 kids and need the car, it's the not knowing that's killing me, ever noise outside I think it's him and I know he can't come between 9 and 6 so at least I can sleep ok.

Maybe it would be best to drive the car up the road where possible

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