Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Quash the Liability Order. Suspend Enforcement. Disputing Liabilities. Claim Damages for Misuse of Enforcement Power.
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robodelfy
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#1 Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by robodelfy » 02 Jun 2017 21:10

HI

I am in a bit of worry about a letter from the Bailiffs.

I rent my house out through an agent in Bristol. A while ago they sent me a letter from the council that had come to the, saying I owed £240 for council tax from the time I lived there. I checked my bank statement and found payments I had made to the council for this time. I was sure I had stayed on top of it all when living there. I sent this statement to the agents and asked them to check what was going on. I just said I wanted to sort it out as quickly as possible and I was happy to pay anything if I definitely hadn't paid it, but I didnt want to pay twice!

They said they would look into it and get back to me. I then forgot about it and assumed they had just sorted it out and there was no problem.

Then the agents just sent me an Urgent letter today that came to them. It was from Chandlers Baliffs saying I owed them £540, twice as much as before!!. The main parts say :
--------------------------------------------------
Notice of Enforcement Agents Attendance.
Warrant of control : council tax
Balance outstanding £540
You have been served a compliance notice and enforcement notice and have failed to pay the outstanding debt. The warrant of control is now at the stage where we have been directed to sell your items to cover the debts.

I will re attend your premises TODAY. We may remove your goods which will result in an additional cost of £110 +7.5%. The removal can be done in your absence if I apply at the magistrates court for a warranty of entry if you ignore this notice.
--------------------------------------------------

What should I do? I really feel this isn't my fault and I was really happy to pay at any point once I knew it was legitimate, but I wanted to be sure. The agents can be quite useless with contact in general but over this I think its ridiculous

Can anyone recommend a course of action? Anything I should or shouldn't do?

Thanks in advance for any help

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#2 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by Schedule 12 » 02 Jun 2017 21:29

You apply for a quashing order on the liability order under section 82 of the Local Government Act 2003 because the liability order was created in error. You write to the council asking::
  • They cease enforcement until the investigation into your liability is complete and,

    When the liability is created in error, quash the liability order under section 82.
If the council does not follow your complaint, then invite the council to pay damages for having to administer the complaint and to escalate it to stage 2, and if necessary, to the Local Government Ombudsman.

If the bailiff takes an enforcement step while the liability is being investigated, then you can sue for damages inflicted if the liability is subsequently found, by the council or the Legal Government Ombudsman.

Also, run this compliance check, see what else you can pull the council up on.

http://beatthebailiffs.org/Council-tax-bailiffs.html
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robodelfy
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#3 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by robodelfy » 03 Jun 2017 10:07

Thanks for the reply, sorry, Im a bit confused by it all as I know nothing about this and the terms used.

The thing is I was living very far away, and the Agents fully manage my house, and all the letters from the council and Bailiffs were coming to them. I know that maybe wouldn't make them responsible legally for council tax when I lived there in the eyes of the council, but the fact they never got back to me means it has ended up with the Bailiffs.

I dont actually live there, and there is a change over of tenants happening right now. What happens if my tenants let them in?

Also, what happens if I keep ignoring them, if they never get let in? Does the fine and costs go up more and more?

On the original bill for council tax there was a link to pay online for the £240 . I can still go online and do that now. Would that be a bad idea? Is it too late to just pay that now. I am just wondering what the best way to approach it with the council is.

The most frustrating thing is I was never trying to evade anything and I had the money to pay all along, I just didnt trust the figures so wanted to double check!!

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#4 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by Schedule 12 » 03 Jun 2017 20:10

robodelfy wrote:
03 Jun 2017 10:07
Agents fully manage my house, and all the letters from the council and Bailiffs were coming to them. I know that maybe wouldn't make them responsible legally for council tax when I lived there in the eyes of the council, but the fact they never got back to me means it has ended up with the Bailiffs.

I dont actually live there, and there is a change over of tenants happening right now. What happens if my tenants let them in?
Nothing. You don't live or trade from there. The tenant has a right to thrown the bailiff off the property without being guilty of an offence. The bailiff is not acting in the execution of duty by taking an enforcement step against people that are not the debtor.



Also, what happens if I keep ignoring them, if they never get let in? Does the fine
What fine?

and costs go up more and more?
No. the costs are fixed, and they only get paid if they recover the unpaid council tax.



On the original bill for council tax there was a link to pay online for the £240 . I can still go online and do that now. Would that be a bad idea?
It discharges ytour council tax liability order and the enforcement power ceases to have effect under paragraph 6(3)(a) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.


Is it too late to just pay that now.
Its never too late to pay it.

The sooner its paid, the sooner the enforcement power ends.

It leaves a bailiff without his food on the table, but that's not your problem. You didn't employ the bailiff.


I am just wondering what the best way to approach it with the council is.
Run this checklist and see the legal position. Then make a decision: http://beatthebailiffs.org/Council-tax-bailiffs.html




The most frustrating thing is I was never trying to evade anything and I had the money to pay all along, I just didnt trust the figures so wanted to double check!!
Never trust bailiffs figures. The exaggerate what you owe.


If you run the checklist above, you might not have a liability for bailiffs fees. If there is any breach of enforcement regulations, then the fees are all revoked under Regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.
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robodelfy
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#5 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by robodelfy » 04 Jun 2017 12:28

Hi Jason

Thanks for such a detailed reply. I appreciate it. On another forum that I posted on and got lots of replies, they said that paying the council tax directly on the website would not get the bailiffs of my back, and they would still have the power to come after me for their charges? Surely it would be too easy if all you had to do was pay the council tax, as then there would be no point in the fine, as everyone would just pay online?

The people on the other forum said that the council can call off the bailiffs but otherwise I have to pay. Do you have any advice for calling the council? I will do it on monday.

They also linked to a case where someone had followed advice on the website you linked to and end up getting charged £7000 in the end. So I am worried about that.

If it was really as simple as just paying the council tax online and then the bailiffs would be gone forever of course I would do it!!

If I dont live there and they dont have my address, what happens if I just ignore them forever? They might keep going to the agents or the house I guess.

Thanks again

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#6 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by Schedule 12 » 04 Jun 2017 15:12

robodelfy wrote:
04 Jun 2017 12:28
Hi Jason

Thanks for such a detailed reply. I appreciate it. On another forum that I posted on and got lots of replies, they said that paying the council tax directly on the website would not get the bailiffs of my back, and they would still have the power to come after me for their charges? Surely it would be too easy if all you had to do was pay the council tax, as then there would be no point in the fine, as everyone would just pay online?

You are reading propaganda. It is a group set up by a bailiff company to promote a set of beliefs they want you to hear. They are work-from-home individuals on a forum evangelising their support for bailiff companies giving advice according to an agenda. Namely this one. https://marstongroup.co.uk/team-member/marc-gander/





The people on the other forum said that the council can call off the bailiffs but otherwise I have to pay. Do you have any advice for calling the council? I will do it on monday.

They also linked to a case where someone had followed advice on the website you linked to and end up getting charged £7000 in the end. So I am worried about that.

If it was really as simple as just paying the council tax online and then the bailiffs would be gone forever of course I would do it!!
I won't say you don't owe the fees, but I will say the enforcement power ceases when the debt on the liability order is paid.

This article explains the legal position:

The theorists claim that "money taken" as described in paragraph 50 of Schedule 12, is the not proceeds from the sale of goods. Instead, they promote a belief it is money paid in discharge of a liability.

http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/st ... iliffs.htm

If I dont live there and they dont have my address, what happens if I just ignore them forever? They might keep going to the agents or the house I guess.

Thanks again
They might try and trace you, which is also illegal, but if the council finds your new address, they will have to restart the enforcement process all over again.

If a bailiff company finds you and jumps straight to enforcement without complying with Regulation 23/33 of the Council Tax (Enforcement and Administration) Regulations 1992 or paragraph 7.1 of Schedule 12 of the TCEA 2007, then post back here, we can do something about it.
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robodelfy
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#7 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by robodelfy » 04 Jun 2017 20:37

Hi Jason

I am confused about all the conflicting info I am getting. I am just worried about what to do. On the link you sent me it says :

''If the enforcement agent has been instructed, then unfortunately, you are liable for the £75 'compliance stage fee'. If the bailiff has attended then a further liability of £235 applies. You can only escape it if enforcement regulations have not been adhered. See this checklist.''

This has happened, as I have the enforcement letter. Does this mean I cannot just pay online like you said and be done with it?

Also, the tax is from 2015, so I am worried if I pay online it will get allocated to the wrong time as you said?

Thanks for your help

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#8 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by Schedule 12 » 04 Jun 2017 21:18

You can.

You are still liable for the fees, but there is no enforcement power in respect of it. In other words, the bailiff is no longer able to take an enforcement step to recover the fees when the amount outstanding has been paid to the council.

You can instruct the council which tax year the money paid is to be allocated. Just telephone the council and record the call (*Android phone, ACR Pro £2.49). If the council does not follow your instruction, you can claim damages for allocating the money to the wrong account and enclose a copy of the recording. It's exempt from the Data Protection Act because the recording is to ensure compliance with your instructions.

What other forum did you make your enquiries?
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robodelfy
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#9 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by robodelfy » 04 Jun 2017 21:36

Hi

Thanks. Well i was planning to call up the council tomorrow and explain the situation and that it was not my fault and that we did not receive letters etc. and that I would like to pay for the tax right away, and could they call off the bailiffs so they stop hassling me. Hopefully they will say yes, but they might not?

Otherwise my only choice is to pay the whole fees from the bailiffs or as you say just pay the tax on the telephone. But then how do I get the bailiffs to sotp hassling me as surely they will just keep coming after their fees even if I say I have paid the council tax?

I posted on the Money Saving Expert forums :

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/sho ... =30-May-17

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#10 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by Schedule 12 » 04 Jun 2017 22:01

The poster called Herbie21 is well known to us. She promotes her own ideas on what bailiff enforcement should be. Not what it actually is. She even started a website discrediting me with ad-hominem attacks and investigations into my private life and putting it on the internet. Did the same to other contributors on this board.

I'll leave it to other members of this board to tell you about her, and the hundreds of other names she goes by on the internet. It took me a long time to track her down, and when I found her, she became very threatening. Even called the police in case I turned up on her doorstep asking questions. She even put her house up for sale for a while then changed her mind.

She has a pair of trolls, one with a sweet shop and the other is unemployed with links to a work-from-home cake shop who tried to pass himself off as retired, but his date of birth says he is not. I expect he is claiming benefits. Semi-literate, before "retiring" he was a dishevelled hippie beardy guy with a guitar.

Pay the tax arrears online and telephone the council to allocate the money. Once done, issue the bailiff with a Paragraph 59 Notice.
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robodelfy
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#11 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by robodelfy » 05 Jun 2017 08:37

Hi Jason

I'm just so confused now. You are both saying the other one is wrong. Are you Oldwood on the other forum?

I need to sort this out today but feel more confused than when I started!

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#12 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by Schedule 12 » 05 Jun 2017 09:41

I'm not anyone on any other forum.

Herbie21 has a policy of contacting other members to endorse her own posts. It can even erupt into a full-blown flame war. She is legendary for it. Banned from other forums for doing it.

MSE is about saving money. Herbie21 is all about LOSING money. It goes against the philosophy of MSE.

She crawls the MSE forum looking for members with a bailiff or a parking ticket problem. Sends them a private message asking for their telephone number and hope the board guides don't notice.
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#13 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by robodelfy » 05 Jun 2017 09:54

I can't understand why she would do that? What's in it for her?

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#14 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by Schedule 12 » 05 Jun 2017 10:15

It's sour grapes that go back a long way.

Years ago, Herbie21 was the kingpin of bailiff advice. I once by chance spotted that she was giving out wrong advice and I questioned it. Initially, she ignored my questioning hoping it would go away. I got suspicious. The result was she got other people to start a flame war to chase me away. This was repeated again and again, wrong advice, on came a flame war.

Herbie21 started ad-hominem attacks directed at me, posting my private life around the internet and referencing it using another name. Holding a conversation with herself discussing my private life in a public forum. This even extends to when and where I go on holiday. She was caught crawling internet forums for her website business writing out parking ticket appeals - which were wrong anyway. She also crawled Consumer Action Group and MSE for business for her bailiff advice service. Her motive is gathering personal data and passing it on to bailiff companies who then execute enforcement using that data. She is not even registered under the Data Protection Act to hold any personal data, let alone abuse it.

I quit the forums and built a brand new one giving it to somebody else to operate. Herbie21 cannot give wrong advice and cannot crawl these boards for victims. It is to protect the public from having their personal data given to bailiff companies and from being given wrong advice. We know she has been forum-scouting for the bailiff companies since 2009 but it may have been going on for longer.

Now she scouts what little bailiff work there is on other forums. Spending more than 14 hours a day and has another person, a semi-retired sweet-shop owner doing the same for her. Another of her trolls is long-term unemployed without any discernible employment history. Another troll is a woman in her 70's who I found to be quite vulgar. Between them, they run a website attacking me, personally and professionally.

It's jealousy. I created a successful business helping people dealing with non-compliant bailiff action. I have gone on to bring countless victims cases to court and recovered millions for them since 2013. Something they, between them, could not do. They don't even have a single successful case between them since 2009. They focus their energy attacking me.
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#15 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by robodelfy » 05 Jun 2017 10:26

Hi

Thanks for the explanation. It sounds as if I have stumbled upon something a bit deeper than I intended!

I have no interest in getting involved in people's personal internet conflicts! I just want to sort this out and get on with my life.

Unfortunately I still feel confused with everyone seemingly saying the other is a liar! But I appreciate you help regardless

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#16 Re: Chandlers baillifs Bristol and council tax confusion?

Post by Schedule 12 » 05 Jun 2017 10:33

It will be up to you whose advice you follow. Personally, I would follow what the law says.
And Im not asking Herbie! Someone a bit more objective preferably!
She will get someone else to answer your question according to her agenda.

I cannot say you don't owe the fees. I am saying there is no enforcement power when the council tax liability order is paid. The liability order does not confer an enforcement power to recover the fees using the Schedule 12 enforcement procedures. Only the council tax.


The 7.5% charge is wrong because that only applies to council tax arrears more than £1500. If the enforcement is non-compliant, then ALL the fees are revoked under regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014. It's the reason I recommended you run the checklist.
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