Doubting liability order

Quash the Liability Order. Suspend Enforcement. Disputing Liabilities. Claim Damages for Misuse of Enforcement Power.
Post Reply
upnorth62
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Sep 2017 15:56

#1 Doubting liability order

Post by upnorth62 » 11 Sep 2017 16:25

Hi thought id introduce myself my name is Carl, Hi to all
i was directed from dealingwithbaliffs to here and hope you can shed some light on the subject .
a few months ago out of the blue i received a c/tax bill from my previous adress from 2009 . on said bill it says its been to court and the courts court have been added to total bill is £227.
I have received no other paperwork prior to this
sadly i only found this out via the job centre when they wrote to me and gave me 28 days notice to respond .while £3.70 a week is taken from my benefit.
naturally i responded ,and wrote to the council.however i quoted the limitation 1980 act to them ,however the council say it stands,as a liability order was made . so i thought" fair enough"
i rang the court however they have no record of this order on the dates they quoted , i also asked for proof of debt from the creditors,but sadly they have not been shown
im well aware that councils rubber stamp there summons and play Magistrates for the day.
ive now written to the job centre ,explaining this and waiting a reply. (lette sent and received29th august)
if the job centre favor myself .(ha) im a happy boy), but im stuck if the job centre side with the council.

Heres a quick draft of letter i sent to job centre


Dear sir/Madam
Benefit deductions c/tax ref Ref-50963****
I wish to make a formal complaint for the deductions from my esa starting on 5/7/17. I have wrote to on 2 occasions and also spoke to 2 of your colleagues on the phone where i was twice promised a call back within 24hours ,sadly no call or reply's have arrived.
with respect i am being unreasonable to ask for a letter to be looked at and replied to within a reasonable time?
I have spoken to the council about this debt and they have sadly not obliged to pass on or show me a summons or liability order on this debt. .I have also spoken to the court and i confirm that no liability order or summons have been issued for reference above. (alleged debt is from 2009)
On 14/8/17 i spoke to Chris on the phone and i quote "yes when we get deductions from council we do not check we just take the money" it really would have been polite if you could of dropped me a line first to check with myself before taking the money ,as a third party you have no right to do so on the councils say so. with no proof in hand from the creditor.

Can i also please make you aware of The limitation act 1980.

To further press for this debt will cause me severe stress and harm to myself and will force me to consider harassment contrary to section 40 (1) of the administration of justice act 1970

Furthermore i am placed in the ‘support group’ where the ‘work capability assessment’ is applied to me . claimants in the support group are not expected to meet work-related conditions and should continue to receive the benefit in full.
This is causing harm and distress to myself ,and i wish for this benefit sanction to cease immediately.
if i can be of any further assistance please do no hesitate to reply .

Regards
carl *********
any suggestions if job centre refuse this ?

User avatar
Schedule 12
Posts: 13273
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Location: London WC2
Contact:

#2 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by Schedule 12 » 11 Sep 2017 18:24

upnorth62 wrote:
11 Sep 2017 16:25

Can i also please make you aware of The limitation act 1980.
The Limitation Act only nullifies the debt, not the liability order. It means the enforcement power remains, but the debt it carries is nullified.


To further press for this debt will cause me severe stress and harm to myself and will force me to consider harassment contrary to section 40 (1) of the administration of justice act 1970
Council tax is not contractual. It's statutory.


Furthermore i am placed in the ‘support group’ where the ‘work capability assessment’ is applied to me . claimants in the support group are not expected to meet work-related conditions and should continue to receive the benefit in full.
This is causing harm and distress to myself ,and i wish for this benefit sanction to cease immediately.
if i can be of any further assistance please do no hesitate to reply .
If you are not working, then the council tax cannot be enforced. In any case, bailiffs cannot recover fees from vulnerable people.



Regards
carl *********
any suggestions if job centre refuse this ?
Run this Checklist. If no joy, then we'll fix it
Author: dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk

upnorth62
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Sep 2017 15:56

#3 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by upnorth62 » 11 Sep 2017 18:35

Thank you

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6571
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#4 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by Pote Snitkin » 12 Sep 2017 08:20

Upnorth, the Limitation Act doesn't apply to a liability order in the way it applies to other debts. However, if they haven't tried to enforce the debt for over 6 years then there would be a possible case of maladministration.

This depends on whether the council knew where you were living since the debt was created. If they were aware then you can use their complaints procedure to address their failing. However, if you've moved and not left any forwarding addresses, any complaint on that front is likely to be dismissed.

As they have not replied to your earlier complaint for documents you can move on to stage 2 on that issue, and title the complaint as 'formal stage 2 complaint'. Don't add references to irrelevant acts about harrassment, justice etc.

Ask for the full paper trail; original bill, reminders, summons, date of order, notice of order. Be aware that a 'liability order' is not a physical document but the council must inform you when one is granted.

Ask that until they provide that info, any enforcement and deductions be suspended.
On 29/07/17, Compo said "If you are interested I actually typed the word label. My spell checker interpreted it as liable" Discuss.

upnorth62
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Sep 2017 15:56

#5 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by upnorth62 » 12 Sep 2017 11:53

Thanks for input pote snitkin
I have had nothing from Manchester council previously,and i have been at my new address since may2015and im renting from the council.So a possible case of maladministration might be applicable.

I will also get to work on my 'formal stage 2 complaint' and request for deductions to be suspended

Ill keep everyone posted on the outcome

Regards and thanks to all

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6571
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#6 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by Pote Snitkin » 12 Sep 2017 13:06

upnorth62 wrote:
12 Sep 2017 11:53
I have had nothing from Manchester council previously,and i have been at my new address since may 2015 and im renting from the council.So a possible case of maladministration might be applicable.
As long as you didn't have other addresses between 2009 and 2015.

If not, the clearly it's the same council and you are paying council tax at this address. There is no reason why they've taken this long to enforce the debt. It may be worthwhile asking for copies of all CT bills since 2009 to see if the arrears are being included or mentioned on them.
On 29/07/17, Compo said "If you are interested I actually typed the word label. My spell checker interpreted it as liable" Discuss.

upnorth62
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Sep 2017 15:56

#7 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by upnorth62 » 12 Sep 2017 22:09

No i have not moved around a lot previous address 2006 2015 , current address 2015 -present( Both in Manchester). although i did rent my property out for a while and lived with partner around that time as council bill shows property empty . im well aware that the owner id liable , but its near ten years back and really i cant remember if it was down to the tenants or in fact it was empty for a while.
However as to not complicate things i sent of my formal complaint letter stage 2 pack and received the obligatory reply.

"We will do our best to answer your query within ten working days.
You can check the details of your Council Tax and Business Rates accounts"

so ill sit it out for a week or to then take it from there.
As always thanks for help

upnorth62
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Sep 2017 15:56

#8 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by upnorth62 » 20 Sep 2017 14:17

hi guys , hope all is well
i got a reply from council today as below .
Dear Mr Brotherton


Thank you for the email regarding the Liability Order Number.
I can advise the Liability Order Number is; 52192944 and the court is Manchester Magistrates Court.

Should you require further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact the Council Tax Service on: ctax.enquiries@manchester.gov.uk as replies to my personal email may not be answered.
Regards

Gabriel Gomez
Council Tax Unit
Corporate Services

No summons, no other documents.the e-mail is as i received it ,even though i ask for summons. etc. thoughts advice please

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6571
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#9 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by Pote Snitkin » 20 Sep 2017 14:31

Reply and demand what you requested. Advise that you're copying your local councillor into the request; send a copy of the two emails and the reply with a covering letter to your councillor.
On 29/07/17, Compo said "If you are interested I actually typed the word label. My spell checker interpreted it as liable" Discuss.

upnorth62
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Sep 2017 15:56

#10 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by upnorth62 » 20 Sep 2017 14:56

As always thank you . will this help if goes to small claims court ,as im still wondering if council /job centre just keep ignoring me ,how will i get the decision reversed . Ombudsmen perhaps?

upnorth62
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Sep 2017 15:56

#11 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by upnorth62 » 20 Sep 2017 17:42

oops my bad
That was a reply to my first mail i sent to them back in aug , so im still waiting or reply to second mail .
i think there 10 day window is up soon

upnorth62
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Sep 2017 15:56

#12 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by upnorth62 » 22 Sep 2017 15:04

Well i never thought it possible

I received phone call from council Manager today stating that council tax was due from june 08 to oct 08
and conversation went a little like this
"yes madam the property was empty from those dates.
Was it furnished ?
No madam the property was empty "

"ok thats fine then ill amend your bill and stop payments from benefits "
Either some one doing a great job on there first day or the phase 2 complaint did it
either way im a happy boy
Ive been asked to submit this statement in a e-mail ,once received im guessing the payments should stop and bill amended.
ill celebrate a little not fully until confirmed
big thx to all involved

upnorth62
Posts: 19
Joined: 11 Sep 2017 15:56

#13 Re: Doubting liability order

Post by upnorth62 » 22 Sep 2017 17:11

yep its official , mail received from council today


Thank you for your email. I can confirm the exemption has now been applied leaving a credit of £7.40 which has been transferred to current year Council Tax.

I can confirm that I have notified the DWP to cancel the attachment from your benefit

Please let me know if you require any further assistance.

Post Reply