Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Quash the Liability Order. Suspend Enforcement. Disputing Liabilities. Claim Damages for Misuse of Enforcement Power.
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upnorth62
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#1 Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 21 Oct 2017 12:57

Hi guys
Hope you are all well . just as i thought i put my last problem from council to bed (please see "doubting liability order" post) I have got something new out of the blue again ,however rather than the council taking the money from my benefits this time i have a council demand from AGILISYS COLLECTION. . just a final bill with no breakdown of fees or time in previous property , as i mentioned before in previous post my property haD stayed empty for a long time. the collection agency are keeping the bill basic and showing no more than what i owe ,with no dates or inventory.
Do i go down the same route as before and ask for original papers as "mr snook advised,"as this is first ive heard from this
and if so , who do i approach , council or collection agency?
As always thanks in advance
Regards
Carl
p.s. you need a donate button

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#2 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by Schedule 12 » 21 Oct 2017 13:01

Approach neither.

They are debt collection company and there is no contractual relationship between you and them.

If you owe the council money, they will tell you about it.
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#3 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by Pote Snitkin » 21 Oct 2017 13:03

Why would the council use a debt collection agency rather than bailiffs? Sounds like they have no liability order.

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#4 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 21 Oct 2017 13:15

Thats good news .

im just worried that the collection agency will pass it back to council and i start the process over again when council make benefit deductions
As letter states
"Failure to arrange to pay this debt could result in referral to an Enforcement Agent,and
the Enforcement agent may visit your property to recover the balance you owe,
or our client may apply for direct deductions from your earning or benefits"

I have faith and trust in your good judgement ,and ill sit it out an ignore it
many thx
Carl

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#5 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 21 Oct 2017 13:17

Why would the council use a debt collection agency rather than bailiffs? Sounds like they have no liability order.

Possibly because of the help i received from here last time round

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#6 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by Pote Snitkin » 21 Oct 2017 13:22

upnorth62 wrote:
21 Oct 2017 13:17
Why would the council use a debt collection agency rather than bailiffs? Sounds like they have no liability order.

Possibly because of the help i received from here last time round
But if they cannot gain a LO then clearly you don't owe anything. It implies they are chasing you for a debt they know you don't owe. I'd be inclined to make a complaint to the CEO of the council.

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#7 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 21 Oct 2017 13:31

Heres me thinking a collection agency is a bailiff i wonder how many others fall for this
But if they cannot gain a LO then clearly you don't owe anything. It implies they are chasing you for a debt they know you don't owe. I'd be inclined to make a complaint to the CEO of the council.
Thanks ill keep it in mind .

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#8 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by Schedule 12 » 21 Oct 2017 14:59

The council can get a liability order even they don't know the defaulter's address. They can use a 'confident' address, but enforcement will fail is it is not compliant with schedule 12 especially the requirement to give notice under paragraph 7.1.

It is possible they have used a common debt collector to trace the defaulter, who phishes a list of possible addresses by sending demand letters and sees whether any address contacted gets a reaction.
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#9 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 23 Oct 2017 13:07

Im sorry to be back so soon , but just received this e-mail this morning,im lost for words. Someone has really got it in for me at the council .Although if i receive another bill/s from collection agencies i should be ok.,as i already have one from Agilsys collection for £1200 .recieved this week.I think a complaint is definitely on the cards to the council CEO.


Dear Mr Brotherton

Thank you for your recent email.

I can confirm a request has been sent to the DWP to cancel the attachment of your benefit and this should be done soon if not already.

I am unable to send you a refund as your account is not in credit. In fact you have £3838.94 outstanding from other years. Any credit sent from the DWP will be offset against your arrears.

Please ensure all replies are sent to ctax.enquiries@manchester.gov.uk as replies to my personal email address will not be answered.

Kind Regards

Rose Elphick
Revenues Officer
----------------------------
Revenues and Benefits Unit
Manchester City Council
PO Box 147
M15 5TU

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#10 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by Pote Snitkin » 23 Oct 2017 16:09

Do you have arrears for that amount?

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#11 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 23 Oct 2017 16:30

Certainty not , as mentioned before the house stood empty and uninhabitable (flood ) for many years and i just used the house for address purposes until sold near 3 years back.I sofa surfed and live with girlfriend at this time.I got a feeling the other bills will arrive through collection agency ,although they got a cheek withholding the money on a said debt when the previous debt was null and void anyway .
maybe i should sit it out and see how the bills come ?

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#12 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 23 Oct 2017 16:45

In fairness i did not tell the council the house was empty for that time ,and really should off , and it will be difficult to prove this to them .esp now i sold the property.

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#13 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 29 Nov 2017 22:09

Hi all .
well after a few weeks the council again wrote to me to inform me of more deductions .( although they haven't started as yet)
So i thought enough is enough and took advice from this site( Thank you pote) and complained to the CEO of Manchester council .
If any monies is owed Iam happy to pay ,so as before I asked for orders dates summons.reminders ,etc .But now after waiting 10 working days the council told me there needing another 10 working days before answering .can they do this , or will they keep me in permanent waiting? Do the council have to answer and complete within certain time. If not, whats my next step. if they persist?As i would really like to get closure on this.
Regards
C

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#14 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 30 Nov 2017 11:34

Quick update this morning Ihave now received a mail from them saying
Dear mr BXXXXX

We need to send you an email that contains personal information. This may be a response to an enquiry or complaint.

Manchester City Council is committed to ensuring the privacy of its service users is protected. As you may be aware, under the Data Protection Act 1998 the Council has a legal duty to protect any personal information it collects. Our Email Code of Practice now prohibits the sending of confidential and sensitive, personal information by external email unless suitably encrypted.

You will shortly receive an automated email from this email address. To access the documents you need to follow the instructions sent to you in a separate email from the encryption company, Egress Switch. You will also be able to use the facility to securely reply to communications in the same way.

If you have any queries or concerns regarding the email please contact the Corporate Complaints Team details below.

Yours sincerely

David Brown
Corporate Complaints Team

I then received a mail linking me to this site , https://reader.egress.com . I havnt made or opened this as you need to register to do so II f this is the reply to the paperwork i asked for why could they send me copies beforehand but not now ? . All help appreciated and needed.
Thank you

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#15 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 30 Nov 2017 15:57

well i registered with egress and got all my paperwork I asked for and its a lot!(Although i didnt get the original bills)
Apparently I do owe a fair bit . I thought it may be a year c/tax tops ,but its double that .
thanks for input in earlier stages guys ill have to spk to council /DWP about a repayment plan .

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#16 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by Pote Snitkin » 30 Nov 2017 17:28

You really should demand the original CT bills. Earlier in the thread you said the council told you the outstanding amount was nearly £4k - is that what all this paperwork says? How many years does it cover? Do they claim to have liability orders? Do you agree that you owe what they claim?

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#17 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 30 Nov 2017 20:50

Hi pote
oops my bad, yes nearly £3838.94 owed.
yes I asked for all original bills in mail I sent to CEO . however all paperwork arrived via egress switch.
I have a of paperwork but its on my main pc ill try to upload later tonight or 2moz.its also in different names,(dont ask) however as landlord/owner I know im liable after 2006 i beleive
do i owe this , thats a difficult question as part of my defence was house stood empty,after flood ,i also rented out for while .and then it stood empty.
until sold in 2015.
paperwork to follow soon
As always thx for response.

Heres my letter to the ceo , if your allergic to poor grammar avert your eyes now , however it got the message across .

PLEASE RECEIVE THIS AS FORMAL COMPLAINT STAGE 2
Dear Ms Roney. OBE.
Firstly please let me congratulate you on your new post ,and hope you have settled in well .
I understand you are a busy lady ,and doubt this letter will make it to your office ,however i feel i must put pen to paper to yourself for a complaint i have over misconduct of staff.
Back in July of this year i received a deduction letter from DWP for unpaid c/tax, ref 515696190.. I queried this bill and after a couple of months and exchange mails/ phone calls and sending off paperwork I was helped out by one of your team ms T Thompson ,and the matter was completed . Considering this was an error from the council iIwould have liked the money back from alleged debt .sadly it was added as credit towards my next bill. i have mail confirming this .
However I recently received bills in other names at my present address and ms T Thompson asked if i was known by any other name , I assured her i was not, and thought nothing more of it .
On 23/10/17 i received a mail from Ms Rose Elphick ,stating i owe £3838.94 and any credit that was due to myself or credited to my next years bill is to go to the amount owed.
I have only just completed cancelling the last deductions stated above . and now A new debt has appeared within a few weeks.ref 513520666
Surley ms Elphick must be aware that paperwork must be correct .how can a debt be processed or any debt be owed by email alone,with no paperwork sent or in hand from yourself.?
Sadly again I ask,
Original bill/s reminders,summons,date of order,notice of order.I am aware that a liability order is not a physical copy however the council must inform me when one is granted .I ask until the council provide this information that any enforcement deductions be suspended .
Have the council simply changed the names on the bills you previously sent and billed myself.? I will check this once bills arrive .
The house in question stood empty and uninhabitable for many years (flood)and suffered vandalism.
If you prefer a more forward approach you are more than welcome to call ,however please bear in mind I am not a early riser due to the medication i receive.
0754xxxxxx
kind Regards
cxxxxxbxxxx
Their reply


From: D.Brown4@manchester.gov.uk <D.Brown4@manchester.gov.uk> on behalf of complaints@manchester.gov.uk <complaints@manchester.gov.uk>
Sent: 14 November 2017 08:48
To: carlbrotherton@hotmail.co.uk
Subject: Stage 2 Complaint Ref TRE/CTAX/AREECL/S2

Dear Carl Brotherton,

Thank you for your email if 13 November 2017 to ctax.enquiries@manchester.gov.uk.

This complaint has now been submitted to the Chief Executive’s office for a full review at the final stage of the Council’s complaints procedure.

I can confirm that the following issue(s) will be investigated:
When you previously queried a council tax bill and found it was in error the amount was credited towards your next bill rather than being refunded directly to you.
On 23 October 2017 you received mail from Ms Rose Elphick stating that you owe £3838.94 and any credit that you are due will go to this amount (ref 513520666). You have not been sent any original paperwork to support this debt and request original bills, reminders, date of order, notice of order and ask that until this is provided any enforcement action is suspended.
The house in question stood empty and inhabitable for many years (flood) and suffered vandalism.

If this is incorrect or you have further points to add, please contact us at the earliest opportunity.

We will contact you should we need additional information from you and aim to reply no later than 28 November 2017

Yours sincerely,
David Brown
Corporate Complaints Team
Research and Performance,
Chief Executive's Department,
Town Hall
Manchester
M60 2LA


paerwork from council to follow.

upnorth62
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#18 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 30 Nov 2017 21:04

paprwork sent hope you receive.im willing to pay for call if you feel you can help and reduce the bill somewhat ,
heres hoping and thankyou

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#19 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 30 Nov 2017 21:57

Im going to argue the liability order charges as i believe there 4 in all at around £80 a pop and noticed on the other site dealingwithbaliffs I can challenge this.
And know for a fact the flood happened in 2013 and stood empty and uninhabitable .till sold in 2015 although this is down to the councils discretion.

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#20 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by Pote Snitkin » 30 Nov 2017 22:44

You should know that the rules changed in April 2013. From that date, uninhabitable homes were charged council tax at 50% for 12 months. After 12 months they have discretion to charge 150% - a perverse policy if you ask me for a home that can't be lived in.

However, without those original bills, the council could be on thin ice.

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#21 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 01 Dec 2017 11:54

Hi Pote

Worth asking for original CT bills .what can I do if they refuse or do not send a physical copy.?
Also challenge liability order costs?
Their is also a debt of £634.49 with no liability order charge on worth challenging.?

I have also got to speak to the estate agent and find out what dates I rented the house out.. got a feeling its much earlier . but worth checking.
Generally I been long term unemployed , ive had short spurts of working and might have been claiming on some of theses dates the council are claiming for.
. The DWP have been so far very unhelpful with going into my unemployment past and hinting that i would have fill in a SAR form to gain access. :(
Money is limited , but can you can help at your end in any way. ?
As always thx

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#22 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 01 Dec 2017 19:09

ok im going to be drating a letter over the weekend to the council
Ill dispute the liability order costs with the council.

Im hoping ill have success with section 9 of the Limitation Act 1980.and hope the council will write off this amount as no liability order seems present for this amount.
1st april 2011 to 1st nov 2011 amount £604.49
Pote Snitkin wrote:
30 Nov 2017 22:44

However, without those original bills, the council could be on thin ice.
yes ill ask once again for original bill/s.

ill chase the DWP for dates of ESA benefit
Ive already rang the estate agent and apparently there records only go back to 5 years (odd) however shes going to pop a confirmation in the post for me to say that my property was rent through them,although it may not make much difference as Im liable anyway ,but worth a shot.
if any one thinks something else should be added . please feel free to add as all help is gratefully received.

Honesty if this fails , do you feel that i may reduce this bill if i submit papers to court?

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#23 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 01 Dec 2017 23:10

Ok a quick draft lots of copy and paste from Jasons site ...Thank you
Going to send this off on Monday ,thoughts please .


Dear Mr Brown
Thank you for paperwork received via mail dated 30th November I wish to go over a few points that have been overlooked or missed.
I Specifically asked for the original bills, ​sadly I must press you again for them .Can you please post the originals to my home address above .Thank you.
I question part of the bill in the area of April 2011 to 11 November 2011 amount £634.49 There is no council number attached nor any liability order . As you may be aware any statuary debt including council tax that is more than six years old becomes unenforceable in a court under section 9 of the limitation act 1980.
According to the magistrates court fees order 2008 ,the statutory fee for each order applied is £3 . I ask the council to give evidence of there disbursements.There are 5 orders in total 3 @£82.00 and the other two @£74.00.I can claim the difference back in the small claims court but I ask the council to use its discretion and under section 13(a) of the local government finance act. The council has the authority to reduce the amount of tax payable .
I plead my case to yourself that it is in nobody's interest the council continue to pursue a case against myself, It is causing me severe hardship and escalating my health issues. I also ask you to take into consideration.
The liability is in all probability will never get paid.
Enforcing the liability causes damage to the councils good name and is not for the public good .
There has been mishandling of the council tax arrears previously.
The liability forces my income below the gov poverty threshold , I am already suffering severe hardship and at present kindly receiving a discretionary payment from the council to cover bedroom tax .Thank you .
Due to mental/health issues Iam a vulnerable person.

I am at present drafting a letter to our local councillor where I will plead my case there also.

Regards
CXXX BroXXXXX

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#24 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 02 Dec 2017 13:33

sorry for posting every 5 mins as im trying to get a little feedback on the letter .
I noticed this morning the original agilisys collection amount is in the amounts owed £1154.74 but now it has a lo against the monies owed , I question the validity of the lo and paperwork or have they just passed it to a collection agency to maybe get a response?. Anyone good at writing letters ,passive aggressive is not one of my strong points .

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#25 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 03 Dec 2017 00:06

ive probably got it all wrong .Open for constructive criticism. sending first thing Mon.




Dear Mr Brown
Thank you for paperwork received via mail dated 30th November I wish to go over a few points that have been overlooked or missed.
I Specifically asked for the original documents (original c/tax bill with giro slip attached) .Can you please post the originals to my home address above .Thank you.

I question the debt from April 2011 to 11 November 2011 amount £634.49 There is no liability order attached. As you may be aware any statuary debt including council tax that is more than six years old becomes unenforceable in a court under section 9 of the limitation act 1980.The authority (Manchester council )must follow correct procedures when applying for a liability order, there is evidence that the statutory notice and or reminder have not been correctly effected ,so the debtor can rely on section 7 of the interpretation act 1978.To negate liability ,this also applies for all other debts .
I also question the amount £1154.75 on 19/10/17 Agilsys collection sent myself a letter requesting this amount ref 513520666.However the same amount with matching ref numbers now appears in the debt with a Liability order attached. Clearly if you have used a collection agency you have no liability order this implies the council are chasing myself for a debt you know I do not know owe , however now the same debt appears with a L.O. charge, I question the validity of the documents sent ,and as mentioned above I ask for all original copies.
The statutory fee for each liability order applied is £3 according to schedule 1(5)of the Magistrates courts fee order 2008. I ask the council to give evidence of there disbursements.There are 5 orders in total 3 @£82.00 and the other two @£74.00.I can claim the monies back in the small claims court plus costs , but I ask the council to use its discretion and under section 13(a) of the local government finance act. The council has the authority to reduce the amount of tax payable .
I plead my case to yourself that it is in nobody's interest the council continue to pursue a case against myself, It is causing me severe hardship and escalating my health issues. I also ask you to take into consideration.
The liability is in all probability will never get paid.
Enforcing the liability causes damage to the councils good name and is not for the public good .
There has been mishandling of the council tax arrears ,previously and present.
The liability forces my income below the gov poverty threshold , I am already suffering severe hardship and at present kindly receiving a discretionary payment from the council to cover bedroom tax .Thank you .
Due to mental/health issues I am a vulnerable person.
I am at present drafting a letter to our local councillor where I will plead my case there also.

Regards
CXXX BXXXXX

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#26 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 08 Dec 2017 13:35

Receive reply from council this morning , accompanied with a footnote letter.

"Please note it is not possible to send the original documents as these would have been sent to you initially,therefore I can only send you copies"

The council have just resent what I uploaded onto here.The letter further reads.

" If you still consider your complaint has not been satisfactorily answered,you may wish to contact the local Government Ombudsmen.

So in conclusion , I wait to see if the DWP notify myself for deductions for debt, (as deductions have not restarted as yet since I asked for them to be put on hold) , and Ill consider further action . If i do not hear from DWP or council im happy boy .
All thoughts appreciated.

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#27 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 08 Dec 2017 14:49

As usual always posting up before reading first (cant seem to find edit button on forum), The council have also put in letter,

" I can confirm that your complaint has been considered at all stages of the councils complaints procedure and is now closed and there is nothing more I can add".
so on one hand the council are saying "well prove us wrong ",rather than admit there wrong , however they may not go any further .

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#28 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by Pote Snitkin » 08 Dec 2017 15:57

Got to say, looking at the documents they sent, they've sent what you asked for - copies of the original bills, summons, etc.

Not sure what all the name changes are about.

Were you actually living at the address at any time those bills are dated, 2010 - 2015? It all looks a bit messy at the mo.

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#29 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 08 Dec 2017 16:46

isnt the original bill the one you get in march april /time with the tear off slip?

Theres still a few issues that need addressing Theres no paperwork with one of the amounts £634.99 and I could ask for reduction on liability orders and make a start with a template from schedule12.
I have also started drafting a letter to plead my case with local councillor, and due to mental health issues and severe hardship I can have bill nulled or reduced dramatically .....Heres hoping

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#30 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 08 Dec 2017 16:53

Pote Snitkin wrote:
08 Dec 2017 15:57


Were you actually living at the address at any time those bills are dated, 2010 - 2015? It all looks a bit messy at the mo.
Yes and no and really couldn't tell you any dates ,as those years were a mess and blur for myself ,and understand if a person is landlord or house is empty ,flooded .damaged im still liable ,although council can exercise discretion , however I doubt there going to be looking to reduce.

I pm you on the name change if you wish.

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#31 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by Pote Snitkin » 08 Dec 2017 18:44

Well, there is what is known as a 'section 13a reduction'.

This is section 13a of the Local Government Finance Act 1992 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1992/14/section/13A

It has been amended slightly by section 10 of the Local Government Finance Act 2012 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/17/section/10

But in essence it means that the council have the power to make further reductions as it sees fit, even down to zero. Every council must have such a scheme.

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#32 Re: Agilisys collection .council tax demand

Post by upnorth62 » 08 Dec 2017 19:56

As always thanks Pote
yep, I mentioned it in the letter i sent to council in post 25 , whether the are willing use there discretion . who knows?


So really I now have to sit it out until DWP take deductions then I can plead my case to local councillor with a poss reduction in mind
Other than trying reduce debt via the bill mentioned above( £634.99) and costs on liability orders , Ill have no choice but to pay .
Has anyone got knowledge of how DWP works ?If I end up paying full amount £3838 whats the maximum dwp can take.im a little worried as its a big debt .info seems a little irregular an scarce on the net. Although i do know that the maximum deductions taken can be .

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