Ross & Roberts Urgent

Quash the Liability Order. Suspend Enforcement. Disputing Liabilities. Claim Damages for Misuse of Enforcement Power.
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Robbed_Ross
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#1 Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 01 Dec 2017 22:03

Hello

I set up a payment arrangement over the phone with R&R regarding council tax arrears, last month I defaulted on the payment.

I first hear this upon receiving second notice in a letter delivered by post on the 22/11 and dated the 18/11 warning that my case may be passed to an enforcement agent, along with a missed call and voicemail from enforcement agent Catherine Lawton about my case having been passed to her that same day. She left a voicemail as a 'Miss Lawson' and responded as such when I contacted her, unfortunately the voicemail has been deleted and I have no leg to stand on there.

In my confusion, as I didn't recall seeing a first notice or "notice of enforcement", the following day 23/11 after The EA didn't answer their phone after several calls I contacted R&R for some clarification on when or what all this was.
oops, arsehole on the phone balks at me that I've missed the payment, tough, and that the notices are only sent out as a matter of course' and are 'not required' other times they simply forward me to the bailiffs phone.

So I complain to the council, here I find out that I must've been served this notice of enforcement when I agreed my payment arrangement, fair enough though that's where their usefulness ends when they tell me everything is with R&R and they can't possibly do anything about it, great.

Finally getting through to the EA on the 24th (since I'm able to pay) and I'm told that a charge for a visit made on the 22nd has been applied to my account as well?!? wtf!!

So I complain (admittedly poorly) to R&R in writing copied below spelling mistakes and all.

At 13:16 22nd of November I received a voicemail from an agent Ms. Lawson regarding enforcement action to be taken as the result of a defaulted payment on my council tax arrears. On the same day (22nd) I received a letter of second notice delivered by the postman from Ross & Roberts dated the 18th of Nov stating an outstanding amount of £700.30 to be paid and that I am apparently at risk of having my case passed to the Enforcement Agent that had just left me a voicemail telling me my case has been passed to her. Useful.
On the 23rd around 17:00 I was left quite distressed after attempting to phone Ms. Lawson only for her to not answer. I mistakingly thought to contact Ross & Roberts for advice and I got to speak to a very obnoxious and defensive young man who informed me that Notice's of Enforcement are not a required document and are in fact only sent out "As a matter of course"! This a complete fallacy and as I am sure you are aware but I find it extremely disturbing that an employee of your Enforcement Agency is unaware of the details what a Notice of Enforcement is and is so misinformed that he has reached the point he feels the need to behave in such an obtuse manner to those in need of advice on the topic.

Notwithstanding this interaction I answered the phone to Ms. Lawson after she contacted me back on the 24th. She too is also acutely unaware of the details of what a Notice of Enforcement is and what it means, nor did she appear to be aware or made it clear to me in any way shape or form that the first contact with Ross & Roberts in September when I set up my payment arrangement would've been the first serving of this Notice of Enforcement (I understand this would be difficult seeing as she didn't seem aware of what one was in the first place) This information was left up to me and an advisor from the council to work out for ourselves when I went to file my complaint there also. Again, extremely disturbing and highly unprofessional.
Ms. Lawson then goes on to claim that an agent has visited my property on the 22nd, the same day I received my second notice and the very same day Ms. Lawson first attempted contact and left me a voicemail (with no details regarding an imminent home visit or one prior). Ms. Lawson also claimed in our phonecall that my initial direct debit defaulted on the 12th rather than her previous statement in the voicemail that is was the 10th, well of course, the 12th was a sunday and Direct debits are not taken on sundays nor are they marked in a statement as doing do so it is quite impossible for me to have defaulted my payment on a sunday.

So to summarise, in the space of a few hours I receive a warning that my case may be passed on to an enforcement agent, a voicemail from the agent Ms. Lawson informing me that my case has already been passed to her and days later I'm told I've also missed a supposed visit from an agent on the same day? who is or is not maybe should be Ms. Lawson? As I understand it Ms Lawson is the Enforcement agent assigned to my case, therefore should she not be the agent visiting the property? If that is the case I find it unusual that she had no recollection at all that she had been here or was about to be imminently so, in her message. She seemed very surprised that there had been a home visit when she went to look on my account further, odd if she's supposed to be managing my case? I also get charged £235 for missing this imaginary visit. Ms. Lawson also does not appear on the governments website of Certified enforcement agents https://certificatedbailiffs.justice.gov.uk/ (updated 4 days ago) Though not unusual in of itself in the light of the behaviour I have witnessed from your staff first hand this just adds suspicion to a pile of reckless and unprofessional conduct. I was in all day on the stated date (22/11) waiting for a parcel and I repeat myself, no such enforcement agent arrived, Ms Lawson or otherwise, I have also not received anything through my letterbox or under my door (barr the parcel I was waiting for) that details any attempted visit from an enforcement agent, the letter of second notice was delivered by the postman and no enforcement agent was there at the time and no other letter was posted. I question whether your organisation would be as confident about the legitimacy of this visit if the imaginary agent in question was aware of the signage pertaining to CCTV around the area? Maybe then they would've been more keen to check the fact of whether they were actually there or not with the reprecussions that might bring about? The address can be tricky to find for some so I understand (especially following these two interactions with your staff) if the agent struggled with finding it, however that is no excuse for them to pretend they have visited when they absolutely have not.

Needless to say I find it abhorrent that it is deemed acceptable to pass my case to an enforcement agent, then warn me my case might be passed to an enforcement agent, to then be treated with a pompous attitude by your staff over the phone when looking for help as the afformentioned Agent doesn't answer, To then talk to the Enforcement Agent in question to find she isn't aware of the supposed visit to my home that she claims has been made nor did she seem capable of understanding or explaining basic paperwork pertaining to her job and will knowingly or unknowingly tell an outright lie about a direct debit. I find Ross & Roberts conduct utterly disgraceful in this matter on absolutely all levels. I have been able to and have now paid off my council tax debt directly to wiltshire council for the sum total owed of £700.30. I respectfully request that you promptly provide me with proof beyond reasonable doubt for both of the legimitacy of Ms. Lawson as a currently Certificated Enforcement Agent and the supposed home visit on 22/11. This letter to you has been a matter of course as I will be taking my issue to the MP's office, the Financial Ombudsman and the Ministry of Justice if it is not resolved promptly.
I paid the full amount to the council and they have confirmed this, however still today I receive in the post a letter with big bold letters across the top titled "Enforcement Notice" However it is not written in a legal style and the content is thus (bad grammar included).

Addresses NOTICE OF ENFORCEMENT references

Dear Mr Man,

We refer to your Council Tax debt owed to Wiltshire Council

Our records show that despite our offer you have fail to enter into a short-term payment plan to assist you during the festive period. Your file has now been passed to our enforcement team with instructions to call with immediate effect.

If the enforcement team has not already called to your address, it may still be possible to prevent your goods being taking into our control. Please contact our call centre on 01458 550480 with immediate proposals to discharge a significant proportion of the outstanding amount.

if the enforcement agents have already called at your property, then you must conclude this matter with them directly.

Yours sincerely

R baker
Ross & Roberts Limited
It does not include an owed sum, nor 7 days notice, it's obviously an effort to look like a notice of enforcement without actually being one and judging by the grammar was typed up sharpish especially to use to try and intimidate me, how kind.

So off I pop to the council again, they confirm that I owe them nothing and it is settled but again "can't-do-nuffin" though she says she will contact R&R herself to make sure they know...

Stupidly I phoned R&R again and oh my I have never been spoken to like that on the phone in my life, several times I had to raise my voice to tell the child to CALM DOWN as he was just shouting a torrent of illegitimate bollocks at me 2WE HAVE GPRS CO-ORDINATES TO PROVE THE VISIT" and so forth I ask What right he believes he has to speak to me this way? His response was "I don't but we deal with people like you every day..." You fucking what? He also stated to me how they 'Knew I went to the council' somehow extremely offended by this?

He closed out our conversation rather stroppily that if I didn't pay him over the phone now then his big brother, sorry 'Colleague' Mr agent blah blah who I have had zero contact with whatsoever, would be round banging on my door tomorrow.

All this was around 16:40 this afternoon, now it's the weekend and I have no one to contact, no one to help me and some wanker coming round to threaten me from 6am tomorrow.

HEEEEEEEEEEEEELP!!!

Robbed_Ross
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#2 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 02 Dec 2017 00:21

NOTICE OF ENFORCEMENT Should read ENFORCEMENT NOTICE

I guess it's late everyone's in a state of TFIF :(

I'm sat here for the next 5 hours waiting to see how I'll be terrorized this time.

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Schedule 12
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#3 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Schedule 12 » 02 Dec 2017 16:58

The regulations call it notice of Enforcement.

Run the enforcement compliance checklist.


http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/fo ... p?id=41527
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Robbed_Ross
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#4 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 02 Dec 2017 20:46

Thanks for the reply schedule 12.

The Notice I have recently received is most definitely not a valid notice of enforcement, though obviously a desperate grab to look like one there's no mention of a sum just an 'outstanding amount' and there's no 7 day notice.

They seem angry and panicky since I've paid off my debt to the council, ergo invalidating their liability order afaik?

Angry boy on the phone told me someone would be round today, they haven't showed so it certainly seems like they're having a bit of a tantrum trying to recover their fee for a visit they didn't do.

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#5 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Schedule 12 » 02 Dec 2017 21:21

Lets see the notice. I'll tell you if its good or not.

It should look like this.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014 ... edule/made
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#6 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 02 Dec 2017 23:25

Schedule 12 wrote:
02 Dec 2017 21:21
Lets see the notice. I'll tell you if its good or not.

It should look like this.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014 ... edule/made
I'm certain this does not constitute a valid notice of enforcement and that is not exactly my issue anyway.

My issue is that in august/september I set up a payment arrangement, they also tell me I was served notice of enforcement at that time but I can't remember, irrelevant anyway.

I defaulted on the payment arrangement.

I got a letter in the post days later (22/11 attachment 1 dated 18/11) which contained the 'second notice' informing me I must pay the 700.30 and I'm at risk of being passed to an enforcement agent (payment details provided on the other side of the page).
On the same day hours later I get a voicemail from an agent Cath Lawton (whom I mistook as 'Lawson') telling me my case has been passed to her.
She does not answer my attempt to contact her the following day (23rd).

On the 24th I manage to get in contact with her, she tells me I now owe over 900 because she claims a visit was made by an enforcement agent on the 22nd, an agent did NOT call on that day, I was in all day and got nothing through my door, no knock, no buzzer, no nothing, categorically NO VISIT.

I complain to Ross and Roberts (letter quoted above) and the council (in person) about the conduct of R&R and pay them the 700.30 owed, they're happy I owe them nothing more.

I then get the wonderful 'enforcement notice' (attachment 2 arrived on 1/12 no payment details, blank over page) that isn't worth the paper it's printed on, haphazardly typed and sent out to me in the post for some obscure reason.
Once again I complain to the council for R&R giving me such paperwork and generally behaving in a poor manner, council says for what it's worth they'll talk to R&R and explain no more debt is owed, useful...

I phone R&R once I return from the council, the infant on the other end is extremely stroppy that I've complained about them and requires telling to calm down several times before he winds his neck in and stops his tyrade of 'WE HAVE GPRS COORDINATES!' 'ARE YOU GOING TO PAY ME NOW?' 'MY COLLEAGUE WILL BE THERE TOMORROW MORNING' woopdeedoo? Pretty sure this is the same idiot I spoke to before cos he certainly has a chip on his shoulder and is extremely defensive.

My point is that according to them I owe fees for a visit that did not take place, they have no more liability order from the council so afaik they can't actually do anything?
They're behaving aggressively and extremely unprofessionally and it's starting to wear on me mentally, I'm not in any form of care or doctors contact at the moment however I have been sectioned for depression before so I don't know if that matters some?

What do I do now? Threaten Court action? Simply take court action? Inform the council that they are liable for these actions? I'm stuck at this point and though I can see similar issues to mine where the solution seems to be small claims I just want to be absolutely sure of my options for my case.

I am not conceding to pay fees for a visit that hasn't taken place, no way.
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Robbed_Ross
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#7 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 02 Dec 2017 23:28

Apologies for the confusion, my initial reply was supposed to be an addendum to my efforts to copy pasta my 'enforcement notice' :)

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#8 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Schedule 12 » 03 Dec 2017 19:56

They are not compliant with regulations.

You are not liable for any fees because the law says the bailiff is not eligible for the fee schedule because he did not use the fee schedule 12 provisions. Giving a Notice of Enforcement is a requirement provision 7.1 of the schedule 12 provisions. Keeping a record of the time the notice was given is a further requirement under Provision 7.3
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#9 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 03 Dec 2017 20:25

I know that, these fees are not related to this 'enforcement notice'.
They have told me the date of the notice of enforcement from aug/sept when I set up the arrangement to pay my council arrears, I'm not disputing that so much as the fees.

The fees they are chasing for are from the visit they say they made on the 22nd (same day as when I recieved attachment 1) which they did not make. I believe a neighbour may have possibly turned them away? Either way no one darkened my door on that day and they're expecting me to pay for it.

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#10 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 03 Dec 2017 20:29

I believe my issue to be similar to the one in this thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4861

I am just wondering what to do in regards to these fees which have been added under false pretences.

I mean isn't it somewhat ridiculous to send a bailiff around on the same day I get a letter warning me that a bailiff might be coming round? isn't there supposed to be a couple of days warning or something at least?

In any case I'm sure they're supposed to actually come round too...

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#11 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Pote Snitkin » 03 Dec 2017 21:01

Schedule 12 wrote:
03 Dec 2017 19:56
They are not compliant with regulations.
Seeing as regulations don't provide for what wording is on a letter left after a visit, the argument is irrelevant.

Robbed Ross - I can't see what R&R have done wrong here. The letter titled 'Enforcement Notice' - was that hand delivered or sent via post?

The other letter is a second NOE - not many bailiffs send a second one. The bailiff doesn't need to actually make contact with the debtor when they visit, and can simply add the fee for the attempt. They cannot add further visit fees.

All that said though, the bailiff has no power to force entry and as long as you have nothing of value outside, you have the upper hand. An option is to wait for the bailiff to return the account to the council then set up a payment plan with them direct. If you choose this, you must inform the council that you are not refusing to pay but are simply trying to reduce the debt then set up an affordable payment plan that you know you won't default on.

In the meantime, keep the payments you would've made in a savings account to allow a lump sum payment when the warrant is returned.

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#12 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 03 Dec 2017 21:41

Pote Snitkin wrote:
03 Dec 2017 21:01
Schedule 12 wrote:
03 Dec 2017 19:56
They are not compliant with regulations.
Seeing as regulations don't provide for what wording is on a letter left after a visit, the argument is irrelevant.

Robbed Ross - I can't see what R&R have done wrong here. The letter titled 'Enforcement Notice' - was that hand delivered or sent via post?

The other letter is a second NOE - not many bailiffs send a second one. The bailiff doesn't need to actually make contact with the debtor when they visit, and can simply add the fee for the attempt. They cannot add further visit fees.

All that said though, the bailiff has no power to force entry and as long as you have nothing of value outside, you have the upper hand. An option is to wait for the bailiff to return the account to the council then set up a payment plan with them direct. If you choose this, you must inform the council that you are not refusing to pay but are simply trying to reduce the debt then set up an affordable payment plan that you know you won't default on.

In the meantime, keep the payments you would've made in a savings account to allow a lump sum payment when the warrant is returned.
Well the council are paid in full so no worries there, these are just visit fees. So seeing as they don't have to make contact can they just drive up outside, wave and then charge me £235 for the pleasure? Seems a bit off... :xmas_confused:

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#13 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Pote Snitkin » 03 Dec 2017 23:08

In theory they could. There has been reports of some EA companies using a guy on a bike dropping off the notice and driving off, the so-called 'hit and run'. Not heard of it happening recently though.

It's about time EA's started using the procedure that some couriers use - if no-one's in, take a pic of the front door with a date stamp. Not perfect but at least it'll show they were actually there.

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#14 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Schedule 12 » 04 Dec 2017 16:41

Hit and run was invented by Rossendales in pre-2014 days. It was to attract the cumulative attendance fees for unpaid PCN enforcement which allowed for up to three visits. It was exposed when a hit & runner in a white van was caught in Haringey and was boxed in on the side or the road. He had a bundle of notices on the passenger seat.

JBW had a similar policy. They recorded GPS traces of the vehicle, but a court hearing threw out their defence because it didn't show a bailiff attended or show the bailiff was driving the vehicle.

Under today's rules, a hit and run is pointless because the fees do not increase with the number of visits. Its now used to leave a document hanging out of the letterbox to see if anyone has been home and taken in the document. The policy ended when a house was burgled because criminals know its an empty house.
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#15 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 14 Dec 2017 13:10

Well another update has occurred.

After hearing nothing since my last posting I received a text a couple of days ago as follows
THE EQUITA REMOVAL UNIT HAS BEEN BOOKED TO REMOVE YOUR GOODS BETWEEN 6PM AND 8PM ON 15/12. WE WOULD PREFER IF YOU WERE IN ATTENDANCE, ALTHOUGH THIS IS NOT NECESSARY FOR OUR ACTION TO CONTINUE. ALTERNATIVELY TO PREVENT ACTION CALL MR SORRELL ON 07453229840. DO NOT REPLY TO THIS MESSAGE
Unfortunately the text came from Mr Sorrells phone on 07453229840 and since I'm under strict instructions to not reply to the message I'm not able to do so :P.

I can afford to pay this but i'm just curious if there might be any problem in just leaving it another day to wind these folks up. I've been threatened already with people telling me they'll turn up the next day and not doing so, so I would very much prefer to hold out on this one and tell Mr sorrell where to shove his punitive threats.

As far as I know they have no more enforcement power to sieze anything do they? aren't they required to get anothrt liability order or otherwise?

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#16 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Robbed_Ross » 14 Dec 2017 13:11

also why is this joker pretending to be equita? Do they work with R&R? or did fuckwit just screw up what is most likely an empty threat?

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#17 Re: Ross & Roberts Urgent

Post by Schedule 12 » 14 Dec 2017 16:11

You can report the text message online as spam, and the sender will have his services cut off. Newlyn and JBW used to do it until they had services pulled for abuse.

http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/Ba ... xtSMS.html
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