Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

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Andy
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#1 Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 17 Jun 2014 11:38

Bailiff will sent to Big Brother's front door and possibly seize goods. I'm not sure how though... :lol:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wa ... se-3698749
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#2 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by mike1953 » 01 Jul 2014 05:52

The Bailiff would not get past the security in any case.

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#3 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Schedule 12 » 01 Jul 2014 12:58

The BB house is not the debtors principle home. It's a commercial building where he is at work or is being paid to be there. He has no access to money and the furniture is not his.

It's a publicity stunt to gain viewers.

Fortunately we don't get BB here.
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#4 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by caledfwlch » 23 Jun 2015 11:23

mike1953 wrote:The Bailiff would not get past the security in any case.
They would probably then have Security arrested for "Obstructing and Enforcement Officer" :lol:

Ben Elton's Dead Famous is a wonderful satire on reality TV.

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#5 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Schedule 12 » 23 Jun 2015 11:38

That charge only sticks when the enforcement agent is acting lawfully. In all the cases I have represented a defendant as MF, is get the charge slung out. For some reason, prosecutors for the Crown forget that one vital fact.
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#6 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Mark1960 » 23 Jun 2015 13:18

How could you possibly be arrested for refusing entry? This is not obstruction, it's exercising your lawful right.

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#7 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by caledfwlch » 23 Jun 2015 21:37

Mark1960 wrote:How could you possibly be arrested for refusing entry? This is not obstruction, it's exercising your lawful right.
Because they are good chums with the Police these days!

Marston's travel around visiting stations and training policemen in their interpretation of Bailiff Law, the same way Capita as TV Licensing regularly visit the Courts and train Magistrates in "their way of thinking"

And my comment came to mind, precisely because people have been arrested for refusing a Bailiff peaceful entry over a civil debt!!! Because the Police listen to what the nice Bailiff tells them, not the debtor brandishing printouts of the law. I doubt any of those cases ever graduated to a charge or court, but funnily enough, when making the arrest, the Police leave the door to the house open, so Mr Bailiff can go in.

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#8 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 23 Jun 2015 22:43

If the bailiff can only gain access via the police arresting the debtor then he has not gained peaceful entry. I don't think the bailiff can remove goods without the debtor present.
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#9 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Mark1960 » 23 Jun 2015 22:54

I don't think the police can arrest someone and leave their home wide open either.

The police tend to arrest someone in order to diffuse a situation, de-arresting them later on after things have died down. It would be highly unlikely if anyone would be arrested for simply refusing bailiffs entry. The police are poorly trained in this subject but not that poorly.

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#10 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Schedule 12 » 24 Jun 2015 11:40

I have come accross it , I gave a DWB client to a solicitor for a false arrest and unlawful imprisonment claim, which includes allowing the bailiff acccess to his unlocked property. He was released without charge, when he came home, his (girlfriends) car was gone. That has since been returned bacause she NTO'd the PCN over to him and the warrant was in his name, but the false arrest claim is still at negotiation stage. The fact remains, the house was left unlocked and unattended while he was detained at the police station.
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#11 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Pote Snitkin » 24 Jun 2015 11:53

Andy wrote:If the bailiff can only gain access via the police arresting the debtor then he has not gained peaceful entry. I don't think the bailiff can remove goods without the debtor present.
The debtor themselves doesn't need to be present - a partner etc could be there. It raises a question though and one that I've brought up before. If an EA was to turn up, what would happen if the debtor simply left the property and went for a walk leaving no-one at home? I know this wouldn't make any difference to anyone being evicted, but for all other debts....?

Can an EA for a court fine just break in if no-one's home? What if the door was unlocked but no-one seemed to be in? What about if they had a CGA?
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#12 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Schedule 12 » 24 Jun 2015 12:02

If the debtor left the property unlocked then the bailiff can walk in. He can even turn a key in the lock. Oddly enough, he cannot use a key given by the landlord or other person. Thats all case law but Ive never seen it questioned under the current regime.

An EA cannot just break in if nobody is home, the legal term is "reasonable force" but breaking entry would unlikely stand scruitiny if the property was empty.

Marston tried a hoax one on a property in north london purporting to be breaking into a defaulters home and and even passed photographs of drilled locks to a CAG member, but an eagle-eyed Google Earth user identified the property and the registered proprietor (landlord) confirmed it was a tenant eviction.
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#13 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by caledfwlch » 26 Jun 2015 19:11

Jason, do you have any info on these Certificated Arrest Officers? It is just about impossible to find anything on them, googling, except for Marstons boastful page.

Their powers seem strangely limited - on one of Channel Five's Poverty Porn programmes, a guy and his girlfriend asked the crew to keep quiet, as Arrest Officers had turned up at the front door, but were only allowed to force entry if they "heard a noise" The chap had missed an appointment in Court.

The only other mention I have ever seen was when I moved into a new house in Leeds, and we received a letter for the previous tenant threatening that the ex tenant would be arrested and taken to Court for a commital hearing. There were no if's or the legal "may" it outright stated they were looking for her to arrest. I don't think it was from a private firm though, got the feeling it was under Leeds Council, with no Bailiff firm mentioned (this was nearly 10 years ago)

A quick phonecall to state she didnt live there seemed to stop any more letters or "arrest officers" turning up.
Best thing was, day we moved in, loads of property left, two internal doors had been kicked to pieces and were covered in blood, the living room contained the passports and other ID of the ex tenant and some guy, various copies of official forms where someone had been practising signatures in different names and hidden in the kitchen cupboards were an antique clock and loads of jewellery!

Called the Cops, and a Sergeant turned up, took everything, told us to call if she came looking for her stuff. 3 days later, I open the door as someone is hammering the hell out of it, answer, to find 10 police officers in the yard demanding to know where the tenant was. Stupidly let them in thinking to go grab me and my partners ID and tenancy agreement, and they stormed in, found my partner upstairs, and dragged her down, terrified in cuffs, until i found our passports etc and proved she wasnt the ex tenant!

Last time I ever help the Police!

We were then later visited by CID and Social Services looking for her - when the woman lived there, they seem to have ignored her, but soon as we report her as an ex tenant because theres loads of dodgy stuff in the flat, they all come flying round thinking she is still there!

There was a funny side though - the ex tenant for reasons of her own smashed a huge hole in the floor, in front of the front doorway, and left carpet over it (I found out when I entered first time and suddenly found my legs dangling above the cellar. When the Police came, my father in law was due in about an hour to repair the hole, in my worry at several coppers plodding in I forgot to warn them, and one copper suddenly vanished to knee height!! :D

Oh and a Bailiff came for her too, being in a very bad mood due to all the forces of law and order suddenly appearing for the ex tenant I lost my rag and chased him to his car!

Then a Debt Collector came. Upon refusing to leave my property, i headlocked him and dragged him out of the yard. He came back and as it was freezing cold, starting to snow, and he had a very long drive home, he got a bucket of water over himself! :D

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#14 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 26 Jun 2015 20:09

If you want to see corporate police check out G4S - they have men dressed as police officer who are giving out orders to the public, there was also a programme I saw briefly where G4S were working along side the police arresting members of the public and then transporting them to the detention centre. I have a video of it somewhere on here.
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#15 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 26 Jun 2015 20:11

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#16 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Schedule 12 » 26 Jun 2015 20:54

caledfwlch wrote:Jason, do you have any info on these Certificated Arrest Officers? It is just about impossible to find anything on them, googling, except for Marstons boastful page.
Never seen one in the flesh. I deal with police at the scene of bailiffs everyday on the DWB helpline but never an arrest warrant.

I did come across one bailiff trying to 'arrest' a drug dealer but he only got a hospital stay. The defaulter was cleared on self defence and he sued the police for false arrest.

It's too dangerous for bailiffs to try arresting people. They have a tendency to get beaten up.
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#17 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 26 Jun 2015 21:06

What business does a bailiff have policing the streets and arresting drug dealers?
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#18 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Schedule 12 » 27 Jun 2015 09:26

The bailiff said he will arrest him and take him to court for not paying the enforcement fees on his fine. When the bailiff moved towards the debtor standing at his doorway, the bailiff was nutted and dropped to the ground. His colleague called police. The debtor was acquitted on self defence. The bailiff was the aggressor because he made a sudden move towards the debtor. The debtor was in his fifties but well known to police. Not someone you mess with but the bailiff didn't know. Other than nutting the bailiff, the debtor was calm and composed throughout and it was the bailiff that had moved aggressively.
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#19 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by caledfwlch » 27 Jun 2015 12:01

Serves the bugger right!!!

He has no powers of arrest unless he is one of these CEO's and more importantly has a specific Warrant ordering the Arrest, signed by a Magistrate.

It is so hard to find info on the CEO's I am not even sure if CEO's are also Certificated Enforcement Agents, or if their only job is arrests. If they mainly work "9-5" doing Bailiff work, and branch out to the CEO side whenever a Warrant comes in, it is a recipe for disaster as our nutted Bailiff found out!! Poor dear may well have gotten his powers confused.

It just seems so ludicrous that people with very little training, and totally outside the control of the Police have been given more powers than a fully trained & qualified PCSO. Germany has a mental version of the PCSO - they have even less arrest and other powers than a British PCSO, BUT are allowed to carry Firearms! madness.

My reasoning on an Arrest Officer if we must have them should be totally dedicated to that role, not moonlighting in between being a bailiff, is essentially the same as my opposition to Police carrying Firearms on routine duties and community patrolling. If a scuffle or something kicks off, one of those Constables will end up panicking and drawing and discharging his firearm, in a situation where it should never have been used.

For something like 150 years, all the humble British Copper needed to perform a difficult arrest was a mate or two, some handcuffs, maybe leg restraints and a short baton of hard wood.

Since being given CS Spray and Tasers however, every 2nd or 3rd arrest seems to all of a sudden require their use, in situations they were able to cope with perfectly fine before. Give the Cops a weapon and they will use it, and end up using it in situations they shouldnt have.

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#20 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Pote Snitkin » 27 Jun 2015 12:09

caledfwlch wrote: For something like 150 years, all the humble British Copper needed to perform a difficult arrest was a mate or two, some handcuffs, maybe leg restraints and a short baton of hard wood.

Since being given CS Spray and Tasers however, every 2nd or 3rd arrest seems to all of a sudden require their use, in situations they were able to cope with perfectly fine before. Give the Cops a weapon and they will use it, and end up using it in situations they shouldnt have.
A baton and a rattle... :D

Today's police are like paramilitaries, and if I'm honest, I have very little trust in them. You obviously get goods ones, but too many these days believe they are the law and are poorly trained, and you never know which type you'll get. However, the worst are the special constables - I remember having a run-in with one at the front desk; the most arrogant arse I've ever encountered, pretending to be a real copper.
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#21 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 27 Jun 2015 16:37

Essex police just paid 21k compensation for spraying cd gas in the face of a man who was handcuffed and had 2 officers sat on him.
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#22 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by caledfwlch » 02 Jul 2015 05:27

Andy wrote:Essex police just paid 21k compensation for spraying cd gas in the face of a man who was handcuffed and had 2 officers sat on him.
That happened to a mate - he hadn't even been misbehaving was just so drunk he could barely walk, they cuffed him, and when he began asking why they were arresting him, they pulled out CS gas and Sprayed him.

Another mate who was there then took exception and tried to protect mate get in way block his eyes, ended up with uncuffed mate in a brawl with 4 coppers needing to go to hospital. When they got him to the cells, one of the coppers held him against the wall, still cuffed, then spat in his face and gave him a couple of punches.

Funnily enough, there ended up being no charges for putting 4 officers in hospital, and I think he got compensation too, his Solicitor had pound signs in his eyes when he saw the Police Station CCTV showing the assault in the cells.The mate who was cuffed and sprayed, I dont think he ever went for compo, but again all charges were dropped.

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#23 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 02 Jul 2015 13:12

he hadn't even been misbehaving was just so drunk he could barely walk, they cuffed him, and when he began asking why they were arresting him
Believe it or not, and if you don't I'll find you the legislation bit it is actually illegal to be drunk in any public place, that includes a public house, or pub to the late person.
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#24 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Schedule 12 » 02 Jul 2015 13:15

I thought it was drunk and disorderly. If the law says drunk or disorderly then either one can be an offence.
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#25 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 02 Jul 2015 13:38

12 Penalty on persons found drunk.

Every person found drunk in any highway or other public place, whether a building or not, or on any licensed premises, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding [F1level 1 on the standard scale], and on a second conviction within a period of twelve months shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding [F1level 1 on the standard scale], and on a third or subsequent conviction within such period of twelve months be liable to a penalty not exceeding [F1level 1 on the standard scale].
Licensing Act 1872

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vic ... section/12

So the next time you go out and get pissed, just remember you're breaking the law. :lol:
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#26 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Schedule 12 » 02 Jul 2015 14:42

What defines drunk?

Driving is 30mg. I've never been tested on a highway without a car.
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#27 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 02 Jul 2015 15:27

There is no definition on drunk in the 1872 Act, however, the Licensing Act 1902 defines drunk as a person who is unable to take care of themselves - drunk and incapable.
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#28 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Hithard » 02 Jul 2015 16:47

Andy wrote:There is no definition on drunk in the 1872 Act, however, the Licensing Act 1902 defines drunk as a person who is unable to take care of themselves - drunk and incapable.
That's me. Even when I haven't had a drink according to my wife anyway.
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#29 Re: Bailiff will be knocking on Big Brothers door

Post by Andy » 02 Jul 2015 16:54

I feel that, happy wife - happy life is what I say.
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