Can't pay we'll take it away

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Andy
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#1 Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Andy » 25 Sep 2014 22:06

Bailiff program is on tonight 23.00 channel 5, will be interesting to see how they present themselves with the media behind them...
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#2 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by jasonDWB » 25 Sep 2014 23:21

Having worked on a TV program about bailiffs, its not a true rendering of reality because the director edits to their own agenda. Its made to get a reaction from the audience, whether good or bad. So long as it sells to the TV channel.
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#3 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Andy » 26 Sep 2014 00:06

A few questions I'd like to put to you Jason having watched it all now (until next week).

Bailiffs Steve & Ian said they 'required receipts for everything in the house' to prove who owned them, however this can be done via a sworn statement, which would render the bailiff guilty of perjury should he proceed?

Bailiff Paul Bowhill stated that the vehicles they were trying to recover were on HP which means 'they have protected themselves from enforcement' which re-enforces the point of paragraph 10.

In a couple of instances it appeared that the bailiffs were pushing for unreasonable amounts of payment, which is against the regulations, should the bailiff accept the amount offered?

Can the bailiffs drill and change the locks? Which is what they did without a professional locksmith.

The bailiffs stated that being a HCEO 'super bailiff' there is no need for them to give any warning what so ever about attending, is this correct? Or does this breach Regulation 6?

Can the bailiff force bankruptcy upon a debtor?

Can the bailiff seize livestock?
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#4 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by jasonDWB » 26 Sep 2014 00:41

Andy wrote:A few questions I'd like to put to you Jason having watched it all now (until next week).

Bailiffs Steve & Ian said they 'required receipts for everything in the house' to prove who owned them, however this can be done via a sworn statement, which would render the bailiff guilty of perjury should he proceed?
To require receipts for everything in the house is vexatious.

It doesn't prove who owns the goods, only shows where and how much was paid for it.

A JBW bailiff came unstuck with this at a form 4 hearing and the judge lambasted a bailiff for asking for receipts for everything.

I don't know if a bailiff would perjure himself if he contradicted a sworn statement of ownership, but it would almost certainly expose his creditor to a liability for wrongful action brought against him from the owner of the goods.


Andy wrote:Bailiff Paul Bowhill stated that the vehicles they were trying to recover were on HP which means 'they have protected themselves from enforcement' which re-enforces the point of paragraph 10.
I don't see how that is protecting themselves. The car was never theirs in the first place, it belongs to the finance company.


Andy wrote:In a couple of instances it appeared that the bailiffs were pushing for unreasonable amounts of payment, which is against the regulations, should the bailiff accept the amount offered?
Regulations don't specify what is a reasonable offer of payment. It only nullifies a council tax liability order if the sum due is tendered and is refused. Likewise. court fines. Councils can refuse a PCN without attracting liability, but would probably get the wrath of the LGO for unreasonable behaviour.


Andy wrote:Can the bailiffs drill and change the locks? Which is what they did without a professional locksmith.
Only if all the following is true.
  • 1. There is a controlled goods agreement made
    2. The debtor is deliberately excluding the bailiff access to those goods
    3. The goods are inside.
    4. Enforcement is compliant in all other branches.
or,
  • The property has a tenant with rent arrears and the landlord has given permission to break entry.
or,
  • Its a commercial premises.



Andy wrote:The bailiffs stated that being a HCEO 'super bailiff' there is no need for them to give any warning what so ever about attending, is this correct? Or does this breach Regulation 6?
It must have been filmed before April 06. Under old rules, an HCEO had the advantage of surprise. That was why I was setting aside so many writs or winding up the debtors company and forming a new one to kill the writ. I only do these drastic measures if the HCEO is blatantly taking the piss.


Andy wrote:Can the bailiff force bankruptcy upon a debtor?
No.

He can only remove goods. The creditor can make a petition but its expensive and usually unlikely to trump up the money due to the debtor being able to squirrel away available money or create a life interest trust and dump it all with trustees.


Andy wrote:Can the bailiff seize livestock?
Yes, but subject to restrictions under Regulation 11, and provided its not privately owned and used for work trade or education, Regulation 4.
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#5 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Andy » 26 Sep 2014 01:42

Thank you, very informative, I think on the second point the bailiff was trying to imply that they couldn't take it anyway because it wasn't theirs.

The bailiff was saying about filing for bankruptcy upon the debtor, however I didn't know whether it was something the bailiff could do, probably for the camera he was implying he can...

The livestock was owned by a exotic animal store (commercial) and their sole trade relied on selling these animals.

Thank you sir, off to bed now! Long day with uni and law stuff...
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#6 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by jasonDWB » 26 Sep 2014 09:24

Taking control of exotic animals is probably not covered under the bailiffs liability insurance. if anything were to go wrong then regulation 34 of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 will undoubtedly come round and bite them on the arse.
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#7 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Hithard » 26 Sep 2014 10:24

As a moderator I am going to have to discuss with Amy sanctions against anybody posting such terrible puns 'come round and bite them on the arse' (Chortle).
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#8 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by jasonDWB » 26 Sep 2014 12:08

Ive heard much worse language used by bailiffs. And that is on camera, albeit secretly recorded. Perhaps we should create a form 4 for using harsh language.

I haven't found that one in the regulations, so using harsh language wouldn't be a breach of the regulations. Interestingly a recent run of form 4 complaints under new rules are showing the courts are not tolerating any bending of the regulations that were brought into force on April 06. There is a certain Marston bailiff that is almost certainly going to lose his ticket in an upcoming form 4.
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#9 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Andy » 26 Sep 2014 17:19

I haven't found that one in the regulations, so using harsh language wouldn't be a breach of the regulations.
Regulation 26 Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014
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#10 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by jasonDWB » 26 Sep 2014 17:24

Not really regulations, but guidelines are certainly persuasive, but as its not prescribed material, it probably wouldn't hold in a form 4 complaint.

I would need something else that breached prescribed regulations before I would form 4 it.
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#11 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Andy » 26 Sep 2014 17:37

Well, lets dig up the Taking Control of Goods 2013 and the TCE 2007 and see what we can find, there must be something somewhere in regards to a bailiff using inappropriate language...
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#12 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by jasonDWB » 26 Sep 2014 17:57

If its captured on video and the bailiff was acting for a council or the court service then I would be inclined to give it to the media. They like a well-bleeped video.
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#13 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Andy » 16 Mar 2015 23:00

There was another episode on there tonight, some dude had £8 million in a safe box, where it came from, I don't know or care. What I do care about is that this dude turned up out of the blue, could have been anybody, Mr Bohill placed this guy under arrest and told him he was not allowed to make any phone calls, before taking both his phones off of him.

Why is it then that this bailiff, is going around arresting people and violating their civil rights? They had no idea who he was, they had no connection between him and the money, they certainly do not carry arrest warrants, they are not criminal investigators, so why are they pulling this stunt?
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#14 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by jasonDWB » 17 Mar 2015 07:35

I haven't seen the program. What offence did the suspect commit?
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#15 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Andy » 17 Mar 2015 08:10

The 2 bailiffs entered an empty property on a repossession, there they found a safe, and cracked it open, upon which £8 million flooded out, they called the police. A guy arrived at the property and tried to gain access, the bailiffs told him it was now a crime scene and that he was under arrest. The man was on his phone and the bailiff took away his phone and told him that he was not allowed to make any phone calls, the bailiff then took his other phone off of him. They then phoned the police again and asked them to hurry up.

First 10 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-gT3YVFj-I

What I find quite funny is that the bailiff says on camera "this is now a crime scene, so don't touch anything" and in the very next scene he can be seen counting the money.

When the police arrive the bailiff lays guilt on the man by telling the police "his colleague has been trying to desperately get hold of him". To save you a long video, the man was arrested, then released without charge, there was no link between him and the money, the investigation is now closed. The money was counterfeit.
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#16 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by jasonDWB » 17 Mar 2015 09:02

I don't know what power the bailiff made the arrest. If no power exists and the bailiff exercised one under a pretense then the bailiff commits false arrest and potentally, unlawful imprisonment.

The man can just follow this.... http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/ba ... olice.html
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#17 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by caledfwlch » 20 Jun 2015 22:19

The only "Bailiff's" who have the power of arrest are Certificated Arrest Officers. And that power only confers a right to Perform an Arrest of a Specific Individual, when acting under a Magistrate's Warrant of Arrest for that individual, usually for missing a Court or Bail Hearing, an Order to attend Court to explain for non payment of a Fine, breaching a Community Work Order, and, presumably a lot less, from the County Court for ignoring an order to Attend for Means Questioning requested by a Creditor where a CCJ has been granted.

Arrests being carried out effectively for the State by Private Corporations, who are outside the many Checks and Balances that control the actions of Police Forces, Courts and their Attested Constables, and that is disgraceful enough, but they actually have more rights than PCSO's when carrying out an arrest!! They can forcibly remove your clothing to search for weapons/drugs, a PCSO cannot and they can use force to open your mouth to check inside for same, a PCSO cannot. And of course a PCSO can only detain you until a real constable turns up, a CAO can transport you.

A CAO according to the Marston's Website does a City and Guilds Course, and that is their erm, training, in the arrest, restraint and use of violence to perform body searches!!!!! That would be like having PCSO's just doing an NVQ or indeed City & Guilds Course for their role - there are such courses for people to help them in a future application to become a PCSO, but, the actual training of a recruited PCSO, is 8 weeks intensive training at the Police Training College, of the Force looking to employ them, followed by 6 weeks on the street with a Constable or highly experienced PCSO. , a bit of a huge difference there! Interestingly there is almost 0 information on the internet regarding CAO's but it is not something that has yet caught the media's eye. And despite an hour searching and trying different keywords, despite Marston's bold claim I simply cannot find any sight or sniff of any sort of City and Guilds Course for CAO's. And it's not a misprint and they meant SIA as SIA refused point blank to have anything to do with the Bailiff/Enforcement Industry when it was mooted. And they are the only ones who do any sort of real training and certification in the carrying out of an Arrest, lawfully restraining people etc, though that is for citizen's arrest. I would imagine a SIA Course in such altered to include search powers would be much better than a city and guilds. The closest C&G have is the course for someone wanting to boost an application to become a PCSO, but again, that wont have anything on strip searching, and forcing a mouth open, since they are not allowed to do that.

To get directly back to the main subject, Paul committed Criminal Offences in the show, no iff's no but's, as by breaching the law on Citizens Arrest, he cannot run to it for protection, it should have been him the Police were arresting, sadly, because the victim was an immigrant likely with poor english skills, and no understanding of his rights, such as the arcana of Citizen's Arrest, Paul got away with it, despite the evidence being all on Camera.

Paul did not see the Victim commit an Offence and the voiceover even states that they did not know if the chap was connected to the crime - under CA you may NOT arrest someone on suspicion, you must witness an offence take place. If someone runs into your house and says they have been assaulted by a guy outside, and you run out and perform a CA on him, you have breached the protection of the legislation and committed an offence, for example

And that 1 first violation created the other criminal acts.

He did not explain the Reason for the Citizen's Arrest, nor the Offence he was being Citizen Arrested for.
Unlawful Detention/False Imprisonment - they held him illegally for over an hour, even a PCSO can only detain for 30 minutes.
At the time Paul did not know whether an indictable offence had taken place, suspicion don't fly, you have to know thus:
The arrestor has reasonable grounds for believing that the arrest is necessary to prevent one of the following:
The person causing physical injury to himself or others
The person suffering physical injury
The person causing loss of or damage to property
The person absconding before a constable can assume responsibility for him
The advice on CA states this is Extremely risky as Paul did not Know an offence had taken place

Forcible removal and theft/deprivation of property, he snatched a mobile phone, and arguably thus also committed assault. Whilst it might be considered reasonable for a person carrying out a CA to take a weapon/potential weapon, nothing states a right to seize mobile phones - for all they knew at the time, he was calling his lawyer, or someone who speaks English to find out and explain what the hell was going on.

Arguably, also reckless endangerment of the guy's kids, since he was unable to go pick them up, they could well have been really young and left wandering the streets, since he couldnt even phone the school.

So Paul should have been arrested, he had no grounds to seek protection under Citizen's Arrest Legislation. He was clearly using his fake police uniform to mislead the guy about his authority.

I cannot remember, but I am sure the programme said he was a Police/CID Officer for 20 years - since he also claims to have been a HCEO for 30 years, he doesn't look bad for someone at least 68 years old, and one wonders why he hasn't retired, it's not like he can't afford it, he isn't even a working HCEO, he is Operations Director for the company he works for, Pinner is senior too, clearly the Management grabbed at the chance to look good on TV, instead of letting some of the drones be TV Lovey's. Such Senior people don't work at the coal face, especially in such a nasty job, 9-5 like they repeatedly claim, and it draws doubt on the whole "sympathetic and caring" image they portray on TV, it's all an act, it also explains why he made an illegal forced entry into the home that business guy was staying at, then claiming it was because he had put his foot in the door - a HCEO working daily would know full well that it was not lawful and would not have been stupid enough to try it in front of TV Cameras.

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#18 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Andy » 20 Jun 2015 23:45

I don't know who you are or where you have come from but I should like to have a very long chat with you one day over a bottle of JD :D .

I know on Marston's website they have a video bragging how they have gone into police stations to give lessons on how police officers should deal with bailiff situations, and worked closely with Citizens Advice, one must wonder if that is why they always tell debtors to go to them in particular. Also if you have ever seen the Essex police you will notice that their uniform is exactly the same as that of those two in the video. As far as I am concerned, that is a breach of s90 Police Act.

What would have been interesting is if this guy tried to leave, would they tackle him to the ground and sit on him for an hour, knowing full well they do not know if this guy is even connected to all of this? Some of their episodes are quite nice and you almost get suckered into believing they are nice guys, then you see this sh*t, taking away peoples civil liberties at will with no repercussions. It makes my blood boil, I'm no fool, and I know the money that can be made in that game, and also, they have families to feed, but the law - applies - to - everyone. Go an learn how to be a trader, ridiculous money.

Regarding my comment about the Marston's website, it's nice to know the police are taking instructions from private companies, bailiffs telling police officers what the law is and how it should be enforced and when. There is one video I have posted of a bailiff on the phone to a policeman demanding the debtor be arrested, thankfully, this officer knew his role, one of the few.
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#19 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by caledfwlch » 23 Jun 2015 11:10

For anyone who has not seen Essex Police Officers on Patrol here is how they compare to Bob and his Son on Can't Pay!

Image


Image

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#20 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by jasonDWB » 24 Jun 2015 11:49

Wearing police chequerboards could amount to an offence section 90 of the Police Act because it give himself the appearance so nearly resembling a police officer. I made this a while back.

http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/ba ... olice.html
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#21 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by caledfwlch » 26 Jun 2015 19:24

I would also like to know why Bohill and Pinner weren't charged with intefering with a crime scene (though again, along with the unlawful detention, maybe another reason why charges were dropped against the tenants)

After stating this is clearly a crime scene, don't touch anything, they then proceed on camera to grab up one of two of the packs of dollar bills, and begin counting through them, they also pull out the paperwork that accompanies the money and read it...

Since Bohil claims to be an ex CID Officer, one wonders if his parting from the Police was more an issue of being shoved, rather than jumping!

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#22 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Charles123 » 27 Jan 2016 15:22

Screenshot_2016-01-27-13-32-55.png
Screenshot_2016-01-27-13-32-55.png
Kevin stokes I had dealings with nasty bully beware, he also was on the tv program
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#23 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Charles123 » 27 Jan 2016 15:26

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#24 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Michelle » 16 Sep 2016 21:02

Well,I've just seen tonight's installment where two HCEOs were performing HPI checks on a couple of vehicles and the narrator clearly said: "If they are free of finance, they can be taken..." Is it only on TV that they do the right thing? How come in the real world, they take cars on HP and the courts rule in their favour? :roll:
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#25 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Pote Snitkin » 16 Sep 2016 21:15

Brian the Hutt was gutted last week when a car he wanted was a motability one. Jeez, he is one ugly mother.
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#26 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Michelle » 16 Sep 2016 21:42

They do behave quite well on camera. I can't believe they're always like that.
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#27 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by stopbailiff » 20 Sep 2016 14:56

I heard on a such a show a bailiff say 'the High Court is the highest court in the land.' This is a misrepresentation, on a technicality it could be viewed as exaggerating powers.

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#28 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Michelle » 20 Sep 2016 15:29

The Supreme Court is the highest court but it doesn't issue writs so, in terms of enforcement, it could be said it is the highest court (that issues writs).

Those people on TV all engage with the bailiffs even though, other than the ones dealing with evictions, none of the debt recovery ones were in possession of warrants allowing forced entry. Last night, the guy offered his car to the HCEOs after taking the trouble of parking on someone else's drive! :o

If it was me, I'd make life as difficult as possible for them, and if they were coming to evict me, I'd probably barricade myself by pushing all the furniture against the door so they can't get in easily even with a locksmith, and would probably chain myself to the wall or something like that. :P Why make life easy for them? :? Nope! :xmas_biggrin:
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#29 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by stopbailiff » 21 Sep 2016 14:21

He was an old guy and clearly just wanted the problem to go away. Scumbag and son working together too, so can tell all the grandchildren as to how the family have no soul. It's like DWP harassing the old dears, they no they have no fight left in them, so give in for a quiet life, rather than fight it, or pay their solicitors to prolong the matter, 'jobs for the boys'.

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#30 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by stopbailiff » 21 Sep 2016 14:26

The Highest Court in the land is the UK Supreme Court, not the High Court. If someone says to another who does not understand the court hierarchy that X court is the highest in the land when it is not, they'll take their word for it. High Court sounds like it is the highest court. So, 'High Court and 'highest court in the land' when taken together are potentially subliminal, so could be viewed as 'brain-washing.'

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#31 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Michelle » 21 Sep 2016 17:25

stopbailiff wrote:The Highest Court in the land is the UK Supreme Court, not the High Court. If someone says to another who does not understand the court hierarchy that X court is the highest in the land when it is not, they'll take their word for it. High Court sounds like it is the highest court. So, 'High Court and 'highest court in the land' when taken together are potentially subliminal, so could be viewed as 'brain-washing.'
Which is precisely what I said… :roll:
Michelle wrote:The Supreme Court is the highest court but it doesn't issue writs so, in terms of enforcement, it could be said it is the highest court (that issues writs).
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#32 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Pote Snitkin » 21 Sep 2016 17:32

I don't think he actually bother's to read other's posts, Michelle. Probably thinks it's beneath him and his 'studies'.
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

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#33 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Michelle » 21 Sep 2016 18:12

Pote Snitkin wrote:I don't think he actually bother's to read other's posts, Michelle. Probably thinks it's beneath him and his 'studies'.
Seems to be a common trait amongst those who post/used to post on LB. :?
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#34 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Pote Snitkin » 21 Sep 2016 18:40

Michelle wrote: Seems to be a common trait amongst those who post/used to post on LB. :?
I know. That 'Flaming Parrot' was a right nightmare........

:P
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#35 Re: Can't pay we'll take it away

Post by Michelle » 21 Sep 2016 18:45

Pote Snitkin wrote:
Michelle wrote: Seems to be a common trait amongst those who post/used to post on LB. :?
I know. That 'Flaming Parrot' was a right nightmare........

:P
She always made a point of quoting the posts/bits she was responding to, so there was no doubt as to whether she had read the posts before jumping in. :P :mrgreen: :ugeek: :mrgreen: :xmas_biggrin: :xmas_mrgreen:
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