Sheila Harding. Mad as a hatter.

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#36 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 29 Nov 2016 14:49

Stal1939 wrote:This is long overdue.
Hi Stal. Welcome to the forum.

The thread may well be long overdue. Unfortunately, it came too late for the two vulnerable people who suffered at the hands of Sheila Harding for such a long period.

I sincerely hope that I never have to read and hear similar comments from people in the future, that I have read and heard from the two aforementioned vulnerable persons.

It is very pleasing to read that one of these people has been able deal with the situation and indeed, take positives from his experience. Sadly, the other person has not been so lucky and has had to endure horrific bullying. I understand that the police have now been informed and are conducting an investigation as to why cyber bullying has prompted a breakdown in a persons health that ended in a police operation that has cost the taxpayer thousands upon thousands of pounds.

I have asked the victim to refrain from reading the hateful comments (as I am doing). I would urge everyone else to do the same. The forum in question is a platform for the hatred and bile of four very sick and bitter individuals. Whilst it is flattering that they seek to spend so much of their empty lives posting about us, it is also somewhat amusing that they are doing so pointlessly, as nobody is bothered to read what they post. If nobody reads their rantings, within a week, the only visits their forum will attract will be from the four sick individuals in question.

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#37 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Pote Snitkin » 29 Nov 2016 14:57

Sheila has claimed on her 'tiny' blog that she knows my real identity. She says this as she has read on here my comments from yesterday:
Not many people know that I once spoke with Sheila when I had a problem with a bailiff. We're talking a few years back before I joined this forum. I had to call her 090 number at the time. Anyway without going into too much detail she gave me info about what I should've done blah blah blah. I ended up sorting it out direct with the council.
Since then I have absolutely no doubt that she has been furiously searching her records to try to establish who I am. She claims on a few people, including her, know who I am. Does this mean she keeps personal details of all those who have approached her? Where does that leave her with the DPA? This is indeed worrying.

However, I feel it's time to let a little cat out of the bag. Here's a screenshot of a previous post I made.
Sheila's bluff.png
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#38 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Stal1939 » 29 Nov 2016 15:12

This is what brought me here because she will have my details as well and what she does with other peoples is very alarming, i have no idea who to report it to and how to get it taken out of her unclean hands, i'm reading all these blogs by martin haswell and peter north who said Sheila worked with consumer action group and bailiffs, i was reassured by many that Sheila Harding was legit and a big name right across the UK and when i found out she disappeared into the mist. i didnt know about her trickery using other ppl to make articles and self praise sure someone must stop this scam.

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#39 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 29 Nov 2016 15:39

Worryingly, she told Jason last week that she had emails from him stored from either 2006 or 2007.

She's like one of those hoarders, although in her case, she stores ancient emails and even more bizarrely, old internet posts from years back. Some of the ones she posts of mine, from around 2012/2013 are really quite strange. One particular one that she is fond of is when I told some idiotic FMOTL what an idiot he was. For some reason, Sheila Harding is particularly fond of that post, she regularly reproduces it, or instructs one of her lackeys to reproduce it. :lol:

Very strange behaviour indeed. I have since discovered that she copies and pastes the posts and then sends them in email format to herself. Little things please little minds, I guess.

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#40 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Pote Snitkin » 29 Nov 2016 16:00

It's a mental illness, some sort of obsessive personality disorder. No-one of sound mind behaves like that, that's for sure. What's also astounding is not only does she keep all of these records, but she obviously files them meticulously to be able to refer to them. It's absolutely bizarre.

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#41 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by delta157 » 29 Nov 2016 16:31

Thoughts on the attachment?
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#42 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Pote Snitkin » 29 Nov 2016 16:49

delta157 wrote:Thoughts on the attachment?
10 and 11 are Sheila down to a T. Traits of 3 and 7 as well. Delta, can you remind us of some of times the chimp tried to bully or intimidate you, or when you found him insulting? I remember him mocking your spelling despite your state at the time.

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#43 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 29 Nov 2016 16:52

delta157 wrote:Thoughts on the attachment?
That is 100% spot on Delta. It also extends to the under achiever that is Peter "bully boy" Bardsley. Both he and Sheila Harding crave approval. Ironically, somebody said to me recently that they thought Sheila Harding was a very insecure individual and this ties in perfectly with the attachment that you provided.

Sue Oddy is just an old woman who is as rough as old houses. She craves conflicts and full blown rows, not approval. The only disappointment for me in all of this is Clive Oddy. He always struck me as someone with a bit about him and someone who was above all of the nonsense that Sheila Harding has been waging for the past few years.

Sheila Harding has an uncontrollable hatred of me that rages inside of her. It is something that I accept will never go away and I have to live with it. It is clearly part of some form of personality disorder that Pote has mentioned. I have never even met the woman yet she possesses this venom towards me. The following is the last email that I sent to her, just about 1 month ago:
Sheila

Why don't you just take this offer up to call a truce? As you know, it makes no difference to me as I am leaving the forums.

It all really leaves a sour taste in ones mouth. David has not sent me any info since the summer. I have loads more that I could post if I wanted to. Poor David gets it in the neck from all sides, every time he's mentioned.

For your own good Sheila, more than anyone else, you need to let it go now.

I find it all so very sad. I'm sorry Sheila but I am not able to respond to your mails any more. I would like to say that I'm really sorry how all this turned out. I really think we all could have been a great force if we were all singing from the same hymn sheet.and I genuinely did try to be your friend for a long time, despite it being clear that you were only using me to get at Jason.

Take care Sheila and once again, I am sorry how all of this has reached this point.

Mark

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#44 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 29 Nov 2016 17:12

That's good advice. She clearly hasn't followed it.

Why don't we just go and see her? It might calm things down.
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#45 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 29 Nov 2016 17:23

jasonDWB wrote:Why don't we just go and see her? It might calm things down.
I personally have no wish whatsoever to go and see her.

Why don't we take the lead and just ignore them? You wouldn't associate with such degenerates in the real world would you? Why not just give them a complete wide berth?

No more posts about them, no more visits to their silly blogs and no more comments on the appalling advice that is given on CAG?

Sheila Harding is an absolute nobody in the enforcement sector. She really is not worth the effort. Do you think you'd find John Kruse looking to prove himself, craving approval and attention like Sheila Harding does? Do you think Philip Evans would post hatred on silly little blogs like Sheila Harding does?

She is never going to agree to a truce. In fact she is never going to even admit that there's a vendetta. As you discovered last Friday, everything is Davids fault.

Lets just ignore her. try it for one week until next Monday and see what happens? Let her keep all the files on us, the birth records, the Google maps of our houses, our companies House records. She's had them all for some time now so what's the difference. Let her keep her stored emails, you will never be able to prove she has them anyway.

Just ignore her, quite honestly, I'm sick to death of hearing and reading about her, she really is two bob.

Try 1 week of a total blackout. Don't visit Bardsley's blog and don't post about them on here. it gives them all a sense of status that they really are not worthy of.

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#46 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Amy » 29 Nov 2016 17:24

jasonDWB wrote:Why don't we just go and see her? It might calm things down.
Do you really want to hear her say "Jason" 459,000,000,000,000,000,000, times?

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#47 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by delta157 » 29 Nov 2016 17:28

Since I had a crap education and didn't do well at all, I have come on leaps and bounds as an adult. Even so with the way I see words are different, I have seen many mistakes on here there and everywhere! Even if you go to the Supreme Court site and read the hand downs you see them there, so if the professionals do make spelling errors then a mere mortal like me can make as many as I do!!!

If you read about this online the spelling that is it can be quite good fun reading things hat are wrong, providing the 1st and last letter are in the correct place then the words can be read easily.

One of the great thing about my condition is my memory goes in an instant, it can also take months for me to recover the ones I have lost. Then I have to remember how to post correctly.

Yes both DB/BA got on my nerves hence why I used my knowledge in different forums. Even now it bothers me not if I can post there or even here, my job is done so it's now a learning curve. The things I am involved with have to have a much higher standard than where I was 4 years ago. I can argue the case at both criminal and or civil. I do my homework and coursework in my own time. With these I am doing very well.

1 piece of work that I have done see attachment, so if anyone wants to mark me then feel free to do so. Since DB loves to correct me often then maybe he can mark the paper for me?
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#48 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 29 Nov 2016 18:16

Di Lindley has just spoken with me. She would like it known that earlier on today, she made a post on Bardsley's hate forum, in response to the cyber bullying her husband has been receiving. She let it be known in no uncertain terms what bullies they all are and how they have no balls whatsoever. Needless to say, the post was deleted. So much for the forum existing "to give victims a chance to respond"

These people really are the lowest of the low.

Di also phoned Sheila but unfortunately she was out and Tony answered.

If you're reading this Sheila, Di wants a quick word if you could afford her the courtesy of returning her call.

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#49 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 29 Nov 2016 19:38

If Di needs my help. She only needs to ask.
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#50 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by diwales » 29 Nov 2016 21:34

Hi Jason,

Thank you for your offer of help, these people have got no balls.I'm not afraid of them, it's David who is ill through these so called human beings that need to get a life, and get facts right before they judge people. What are they afraid of deleting what I wrote? They are quick enough running David down, but dont like it when me his wife fights back.

Do they really think David can get posts removed from here? Usually he's blocked for even reading the site. I'm not letting any of this go, all names and addresses will be given to the police.

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#51 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Amy » 29 Nov 2016 21:52

diwales wrote:Do they really think David can get posts removed from here? Usually he's blocked for even reading the site.
And yet, here you are.

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#52 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 29 Nov 2016 21:57

I've provided you all their names and addresses. Tuco will have forwarded them on by now.

Do let me know if I can help you further.
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#53 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 29 Nov 2016 22:55

jasonDWB wrote:I've provided you all their names and addresses. Tuco will have forwarded them on by now.

Do let me know if I can help you further.
Yes I have passed the details on.

I would just add that Christmas is around the corner. Sheila Harding has the power to order her lackeys to stop this witch hunt and to leave this family alone to enjoy their Christmas like any other family. How bad must things have got in order to have prompted Di to post?

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#54 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 29 Nov 2016 23:21

Di, you ought to be aware that if David can show medical evidence that his condition is being worsened by Sheila. You can apply to the court for an order to have her desist whatever she is doing to cause his health to fail.

I know a solicitor. Im sure Sheila has deep enough pockets living in a nice country pile.
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#55 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by delta157 » 29 Nov 2016 23:21

People with learning disabilities may find it difficult to fit in with mainstream society. This can be for a number of reasons, as they may face prejudice and discrimination in their everyday lives. They might not have the ability to effectively communicate with other people. They may not understand certain aspects of social etiquette, or they may simply find it difficult to access their local communities and community services. In short, they are not always adequately protected like other people in society as they are sometimes excluded from it.
Read more here >> http://www.aboutlearningdisabilities.co ... crime.html

Access To Justice
A vulnerable person may be seen as an easy target, seemingly less protected and helpless in the face of attack, bullying or abuse. However, another problem exists in that a vulnerable person that has become a victim of crime may not have the ability to or knowledge of how to tell someone or report such crime to the authorities. And, even in instances where a crime has been reported, there have been cases where a number of obstacles have stood in the way of the victim having access to justice.
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#56 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by delta157 » 29 Nov 2016 23:51

Although I have been on the receiving end of bullying as discussed above I have gained strength, I can do so much more now than I did just a few years ago, the way I have gained my strength is to face those that know or care very little as to how I really am, yes I am delicate in person and in mind, but at the end of the day the power I hold at my finger tips is phenomenal, how and why? This is a simple answer you just hit the power down button and the person goes away with the infamous white dot just as the screen goes off. See here >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB-bJWsIG_o

The same goes for phones hitting the power button gives you the power to let whomever you wish into your life or simply to block them from it, I use the block feature on my smart phone often then remove it when I AM READY!

I have a large team behind me and that includes medical, but, not the Mental Health team, I am lucky in this respect as I don't need this support, others do!

All I can say is on the day of my 'accident' in my brain I was on mega bucks a day, I could take off for four months of the year to Tunisia, I could do so much, but now, cooking a meal is hard, helping a fellow debtor out is easy to a point. Dealing with the likes of BA/DB now comes easy, hit the power button it makes you feel great, do research instead of posting, visit the Supreme Court site and watch real law in practise and learn.

BUT MOST OF ALL THE LIKES OF CYBER-BULLIES IS NOW SLOWLY BECOMING A THING OF THE PAST!!!


I have great friends and most of them are in the Justice field at all levels (except Law Lords) I wish both the guy and lady here above a great Xmas and that happiness smiles down on you both!

Gain the power hit the button it feels great. If anyone wants to know what I feel and have to go through most days have a look at my video, then realise just how far I have come.

Even I have had name calling by some from here but in the end I am still here and I still talk to them, this is called progress thanks for helping me as well!!

THANK YOU ALL Here is my link >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmSuvE1WH7o&t=48s

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#57 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 29 Nov 2016 23:56

Amy wrote:
diwales wrote:Do they really think David can get posts removed from here? Usually he's blocked for even reading the site.
And yet, here you are.
Just to be perfectly clear here, I would not have posted Di's surname unless she had specifically asked me to do so. In her words, she said "I'm not afraid of them".

Hats off to her. I have no doubt that the poster is Di.

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#58 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 29 Nov 2016 23:59

delta157 wrote:Although I have been on the receiving end of bullying as discussed above I have gained strength, I can do so much more now than I did just a few years ago, the way I have gained my strength is to face those that know or care very little as to how I really am, yes I am delicate in person and in mind, but at the end of the day the power I hold at my finger tips is phenomenal, how and why? This is a simple answer you just hit the power down button and the person goes away with the infamous white dot just as the screen goes off. See here >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lB-bJWsIG_o

The same goes for phones hitting the power button gives you the power to let whomever you wish into your life or simply to block them from it, I use the block feature on my smart phone often then remove it when I AM READY!

I have a large team behind me and that includes medical, but, not the Mental Health team, I am lucky in this respect as I don't need this support, others do!

All I can say is on the day of my 'accident' in my brain I was on mega bucks a day, I could take off for four months of the year to Tunisia, I could do so much, but now, cooking a meal is hard, helping a fellow debtor out is easy to a point. Dealing with the likes of BA/DB now comes easy, hit the power button it makes you feel great, do research instead of posting, visit the Supreme Court site and watch real law in practise and learn.

BUT MOST OF ALL THE LIKES OF CYBER-BULLIES IS NOW SLOWLY BECOMING A THING OF THE PAST!!!


I have great friends and most of them are in the Justice field at all levels (except Law Lords) I wish both the guy and lady here above a great Xmas and that happiness smiles down on you both!

Gain the power hit the button it feels great. If anyone wants to know what I feel and have to go through most days have a look at my video, then realise just how far I have come.

Even I have had name calling by some from here but in the end I am still here and I still talk to them, this is called progress thanks for helping me as well!!

THANK YOU ALL Here is my link >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmSuvE1WH7o&t=48s
Keep the posts coming Delta.

Congratulations on your recovery

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#59 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 30 Nov 2016 00:40

Sheila Harding knew that David had not divulged the Oddy's identities:
To From Bailiff Advice Aug 10 at 12:21 AM
No- You didn't ever refer to her by name.

You told me that she was disabled and had been hurt in a visit to a shop that was in a remote location and that she'd won her court claim. You mentioned Northumbria to me, not Newcastle.

David has never mentioned the Oddys to me, other than to tell me that he emailed them both, asking for an explanation.

If you recall, I never stated that Sue was Sue Bristow-That is because of the information that you had given me and that was long before David and I were speaking.


Show original message
Still she stood by, turning a blind eye as the evil Oddys blamed David for every sin under the sun.

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#60 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 30 Nov 2016 08:49

So Sheila knew all along the Oddys involvement.

She kept that quiet all the time Clive was a moderator on CAG with access to the inner sanctum board passing information out to Sheila and harvesting dormant usernames.

I can now see where all those dormant usernames come from. How many more does he have? How many more fake bailiff enquires is the CAG board going to see - and answered by himself as ploddertom and Sheila as bailiff advice

I think the CAG administrator need to carefully look over Clive's admin log.
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#61 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by diwales » 30 Nov 2016 11:29

hope you dont mind me posting this on here i posted a comment on peter bard forum as you will see it only stayed there for 2 min
PB site 2016-11-30 at 10.36.jpg
they are gutless they are quick enough in posting about david but they dont know that i know things about them if they dont stop posting about david i will be spilling the beans meanwhile they have blocked me from their site
PB site 2016-11-30 at 10-40 Fordidden.jpg
how childish its ok for them to have a say but for me to have mine they blocked me well karma is a bitch and they will get theirs.
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#62 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 30 Nov 2016 15:02

David didn't give me Peters number.

The right thing David did is get out of running Sheila's smear campaign against me.

She started posting real names around the internet, without considering this will come around and bite her on the buttocks.
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#63 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Pote Snitkin » 30 Nov 2016 15:41

He also didn't let us know about their sordid site - I found it.

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#64 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 30 Nov 2016 16:34

So, lets have a list.

What other sites has Sheila created or commented on about me?

The ones I already know about are:
  • the fakes BHF site
    pepipoo.com
    legalbeagles.info
    getoutofdebtfree.org
    Consumer Action Group
    quatloos.com
Sheila told me in a telephone call that she was concerned that her grandchildren see her name is mud on the internet. I believe her plan was to inflict that on me.
  • She says I am a pathological liar. She is precisely that, but it might not be pathological.

    Accuses me of misleading debtors. Sheila does that my misrepresenting points of law.

    Says I don't provide "proof". Sheila starts a flame war when she is asked for proof to support a claim she has made.

    I start flame wars. It is Sheila that practices starting flame wars on internet discussion forums when she is asked for evidence supporting a claim or assertion, or the claim is proven wrong by way of evidence.

    Says I have personas. Sheila has a long list of them. bailiff advice, BishopT, tomtubby, BailiffAdviceOnline, Bungle, Zippy, IanW, colin11, Flem, Craigie, Thisoccupier, herbie21, LouiseN, KayMoose, Duped, Milo, *RainbowTears*, Martha, herb, Codger, Launcelot, Duped, NOR33N, Bubblesdahling, Miss Bella

    Susan and Clive Oddy has a similar list. Including a a brother called Wayne with an Oxford law degree.

    Says I live in Crawley. I've not worked out the significance of that, but Sheila told me she lived in Taunton when
    she actually lives 30 miles away in Wootton Courtenay. I've yet to figure out the reason.

    Sheila says I passed her details on to others. She passes mine to countless bailiff companies, even insignificant ones.

    Sheila thinks the entire enforcement industry knows me. (I speak to different bailiffs every day over the DWB helpline and they have never heard of me). She was royally ridiculed over her car tax woes at a bailiffs symposium when someone in the audience name-checked her when I was at the rostrum. She is considered an interloper in civil enforcement circles.

    Says I encourage other people to help me discredit Sheila. (I have never asked anybody to make a comment on my behalf) Everything seen is from her own unhappy clients, Sheila stitched up and they speak out. Or its from their own personal dealings with Sheila. This is only the practice of Sheila, who asked (then anonymously) Clive & Susan Oddy, Peter. There were countless others, but they learned the true aspect of Sheila and moved on.

    Says I have county court judgement and discussed them in a public forum. It is Sheila that has CCJ (and charging orders) and Clive Oddy has an unsatisfied judgment on 02/02/11 for £6,719.

    Accuses me of side-stepping questions. Sheila does precisely that.
In essence. For everything Sheila practices, she accuses me of practicing the same.
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#65 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Tuco » 30 Nov 2016 16:56

jasonDWB wrote:So, lets have a list.

What other sites has Sheila created or commented on about me?
Sheila couldn't create a site-She gets others to create them and then supplies them with the information that she wants publishing (information about you of course)

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#66 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 30 Nov 2016 17:12

We can discount two of them. The creator has come clean.
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#67 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by delta157 » 30 Nov 2016 18:23

Side stepping and begging too >>
Clearly some councils have failed to grasp how the 'pro rata' distribution of payments is supposed to work. Perhaps you would be kind enough to provide some examples from councils who have the correct procedures in place.

The country's expert on bailiff law; John Kruse, wrote an article recently on this subject. I will post an extracts from it on here. Perhaps it will assist these errant local authorities to understand where they are going wrong.


Seems to me she is piffed off because some of the LA's not paying the EA out of the money received, she also asked for a copy of the template letter, is this so she can approach the errant LA's and tell them the correct way? Then make sure they then pay the fees out of money received?
It would be very nice to see more responses. However before doing so, could you post a copy of the template request that you would have made to the councils (which I would assume, would have been the same for each council).


I wonder if she will ever stop name dropping at every chance she gets!

Save time and begging go and do the work yourself instead of relying on information you gather (beg/coerce) from those of US that actually look for the information themselves!

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#68 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 30 Nov 2016 18:34

Did she ever give that John Kruse article she mentioned?

If not, why she bring John Kruse's name into it?

Rather than writing articles, wouldn't it be better to give the legislation and let them make up their own minds?
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#69 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Pote Snitkin » 30 Nov 2016 18:37

I corresponded with JK a few months ago about this subject and despite what Sheila pretends, he told me that he has no strong views on the matter. However, he did say my argument was very persuasive.

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#70 Re: Sheila Harding

Post by Schedule 12 » 30 Nov 2016 19:57

Sheila is promoting a wrong interpretation of pro-rata for the distribution of enforcement proceeds by posting articles on websites around the internet. original article Another article here, and another.

For the benefit of those less informed, I'll give the law that specifies it and when it applies.

The expression pro-rata in civil enforcement is taken from regulation 13 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulation 2014, which states: (highlighted)
  • Application of proceeds where less than the amount outstanding

    13.—(1) Subject to paragraph 50(6) of Schedule 12, when the proceeds from the exercise of an enforcement power are less than the amount outstanding, they must be applied in accordance with this regulation.

    (2) Where the goods are sold or disposed of at public auction (other than by internet auction), the proceeds must be applied first in payment of the auctioneer’s fees calculated in accordance with regulation 9(2) or (3) as appropriate.

    (3) Following the payment at paragraph (2), the enforcement agent may then recover the compliance fee.

    (4) Subject to paragraph (5), following any payment due by virtue of paragraphs (2) and (3), the proceeds must be applied pro rata in payment of—

    • (a)the sum to be recovered, and

      (b)any remaining amounts recoverable in respect of fees and disbursements payable to the enforcement agent in accordance with these Regulations.


    (5) Where the same legal person is both the creditor and the enforcement agent, paragraph (4) does not apply and the proceeds must be applied in payment of the amount referred to in paragraph (4)(b) before payment of the amount at paragraph (4)(a).

    (6) In paragraphs (4) and (5), references to the proceeds are to the proceeds after deduction of the sums, if any, to which paragraphs (2) and (3) relate.

The law only provides for proceeds to be apportioned pro-rata when the money is proceeds


Sheila promotes an interpretive theory that money paid to a creditor without the schedule 12 procedure being used, is "proceeds"



As a side note, the law uses the term amount outstanding. Parliament gave the definition of amount outstanding in Paragraph 50(3) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.

  • (3)The amount outstanding is the sum of these—

    (a)the amount of the debt which remains unpaid (or an amount that the creditor agrees to accept in full satisfaction of the debt);

    (b)any amounts recoverable out of proceeds in accordance with regulations under paragraph 62 (costs).


Sheila promotes an interpretative theory the above means that fees are amounts recoverable from proceeds.

It could be Sheila fails to understand the defference between fees and costs, and promotes an interpretive theory that costs and fees are the same.
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