courts paying bayliffs

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trikenutter
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#1 courts paying bayliffs

Post by trikenutter » 09 Jun 2014 14:13

hi i have been paying money to HMRC to cover non payment of tv licence fines, and all was good untill i phoned the courts to get a balance for my final payment.
They informed me that they couldn't tell me my outstanding balance as they had forwarded all my payments to MARSDON enforcement which now means i'm paying the bayliff fees whether i want to or not, is this legal?
if not then what can i do about it
cheers all trike

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jasonDWB
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#2 Re: courts paying bayliffs

Post by jasonDWB » 09 Jun 2014 15:11

If you have the receipts showing parents of the fine then as far as the law is concerned there is no distress warrant in force. Rule 52.8.5 [crimpr][/crimpr]

If the court service disposes of treasury funds then it's not your concern.

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trikenutter
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#3 Re: courts paying bayliffs

Post by trikenutter » 09 Jun 2014 15:39

hi jason and thanks.
the local government ombudsman only deal with council tax and councils, they did however give me a number for PHSO which is 0345 015 4033 who gave me the number for the court customer service and complaints dept. which are 0845 456 8770 and 0207 189 2000 and suggested i talk to them about this case.

on a side note i have just noticed that we made a payment to the courts on the 13/5/14 and the compliance letter was issued on the 14/5/14 one day after payment was received by HMRC. this payment was also sent directly to MARSDON by HMRC, can we use this?

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jasonDWB
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#4 Re: courts paying bayliffs

Post by jasonDWB » 09 Jun 2014 15:46

Sorry, I meant to give you the Parliamentary Ombudsman number. Its 0345 015 4033.

If you talk to the court service itself, they are trained to mislead you with wrong advice concerning bailiffs fees on court fines. this article has a list of known examples:
  • 1. "it's in the hands of the bailiffs" or (words to this effect)
    2. "contact the bailiffs to discuss payment".
    3. They say "the Criminal Procedure Rules 2013"
    4. "Rule 54 of the Magistrates' Courts Rules 1981" (which has been repealed anyway!).
    5. it is under "common law"
    6. A "treasury solicitor has authorised the charge"
    7. It's costs in connection with execution of the distress warrant (even when no distress has been executed)
    8. The fees are allowed under Part 58.2(2)(a)(iii) of the Criminal Procedure Rules 2013 (this only applies to taking and selling goods)
Parliament has never approved any law that provides for bailiff companies to levy distress on goods to obtain payment of their fees against a magistrates court fines defaulter..

Schedule 1 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 (Consequential, Transitional and Saving Provision) Order 2014 creates statutory fee schedules for each debt stream from table 1 of the Schedule of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014. However section 1 of the schedule 1 deals with magistrates court rules implicitly does not create a statutory fee schedule for the recovery of unpaid court fines.

The court service staff might say "Its in the contract". The bailiff and court service staff says a 'contract' exists that enables bailiffs to enforce their fees by levying distress. Here is that contract obtained by a Freedom of Information Act request but nothing in it says defaulters are liable for any fees. http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/fr ... ntract.pdf

The court service is not a court and cannot create a fee liability without Parliamentary approval and none has been provided.

The regulation 6 notice of enforcement was given to you out of time because you had already paid the fine before you were given that notice. The date on the notice carries no weight because regulation 6 of the Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013 says the notice must be "GIVEN" to you at least seven days clear excluding Sundays and public holidays. Backdating a notice and sending it by a delayed postal class does not work in the bailiffs favour, although they like to think it does.

Once payment was made then the warrant ceased to have effect under part 52.8.5 [crimpr][/crimpr]. The court is finished with your fine as far as they are concerned.
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trikenutter
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#5 Re: courts paying bayliffs

Post by trikenutter » 12 Jun 2014 11:37

thank you for that i shall speak to the courts service and let you know what happens.
mike

trikenutter
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#6 Re: courts paying bayliffs

Post by trikenutter » 12 Jun 2014 11:52

just phoned the court service quoted the regulation and she hung up

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jasonDWB
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#7 Re: courts paying bayliffs

Post by jasonDWB » 12 Jun 2014 12:35

Try again, be more polite and download an app to record the call.

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#8 Re: courts paying bayliffs

Post by trikenutter » 13 Jun 2014 12:48

hi jason i have spoken with the parliamentary ombudsman and they have told me to write an official complaints letter to the courts manager which i have done both via email and on paper, the letter is as follows
FORMAL COMPLAINT
Courts Manager Ms. T
The law courts 42 **** ******
Horntye park ******** ****
Bohemia road ************
Hastings
East Sussex West Sussex
TN34 1ND ********


Dear Sir/Madam,

I am writing to you to issue a formal complaint, with regard to the handling of Ms T****** case ref 14002180K BM.

Ms T***** was present in court in January of this year to have a case of non payment of television licence heard of which the result was a fine of £114.00 to be paid monthly at a rate of £56.00, this is not in dispute.
Ms T***** was able to make her first payment dated 1st February 2014 without problem, unfortunately Ms T***** then failed to make a second payment in March and also April due to a computer error within the online automated payment service, but was unaware of this error until Ms T***** noted on her bank statement that the payments did not leave her bank account, upon noting this Ms T***** then immediately made a payment of £56 to the court service using her debit card on the 12th or 13th of May.
Ms T***** is aware that this was an error which could have been avoided had she checked her statements earlier but as I am sure you can understand as far as she was aware the automated service had taken payment and all was fine.

The nature of Ms. T*****'S complaint it is as follows:

1. After having made payment on the 13th may Ms T***** then received a NOTICE OF ENFORCEMENT from MARSDON ENFORCEMENT AGENCY dated 14th May charging her a £75 compliance stage fee, a fee that is not payable because according to regulation 6 of the taking control of goods act: notice must be GIVEN at least seven days clear excluding Sundays and bank holidays, also because Ms T***** had already made a current payment before the compliance notice was given.

2. Upon speaking to a representative of your court service to ascertain the amount outstanding on Ms. T*****s account, in order to make final payment of the fine, I was informed that all payments Ms T***** had made had been forwarded to MARSDON ENFORCEMENT AGENCY
and that Ms T*****’s balance was whatever Marsdon was charging her including any and all fees created by Marsdon, thereby forcing Ms. T***** to pay the compliance fee despite (a) as stated before, the fee being non enforceable due to the date it was made being both after Ms T***** made payment of the fine, (b) regulation 6 TAKING CONTROL OF GOODS REGULATIONS and (c) parliament has NEVER approved any law that provides for bailiff companies to levy distress on goods to obtain payment of their fees against a magistrates court fines defaulter ..


Schedule 1 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 (Consequential, Transitional and Saving Provision) Order 2014 creates statutory fee schedules for each debt stream from table 1 of the Schedule of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014. However section 1 of the schedule 1 deals with magistrates’ court rules implicitly does not create a statutory fee schedule for the recovery of unpaid court fines

Finally, (d) the court service is not a court and cannot create a fee liability without parliamentary approval and none has been provided.

3. Once payment was made the warrant ceases to have effect under part 52.8.5 of the criminal proceedings rules 2013.

4. I spoke to another representative of the court service yesterday to explain the above rules to her only to be cut off mid conversation and transferred to Marsdon, I found this rude attitude very disconcerting , unprofessional and a flagrant attempt to circumnavigate the rules, procedures and rights laid out by the government and the MINISTRY OF JUSTICE to protect vulnerable people just like Ms. T***** who is a single parent on benefit struggling with her finances just as thousands of other people do every day.

I thank you for your time and consideration in this matter and request that this matter be taken away from the bailiff and that Ms. T***** could be given the final balance remaining on the fine without the unnecessary ‘add on’ of the invalid compliance fee Ms. T***** is currently being forced into paying.

Yours with respect and on behalf of Ms T



Michael (Mr)

obviously i have edited names for privacy. but please let me kn ow what you think.

cheers
,mike

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jasonDWB
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#9 Re: courts paying bayliffs

Post by jasonDWB » 13 Jun 2014 13:54

That's good to go. An articulately written letter.

You need to add that the court service is accountable for Marston action under paragraph 7 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014

Otherwise they might come back with one of the known list of excuses saying you are liable for the fees in post #4 above. This is where you need to lean on the parliamentary ombudsman because none of that list of excuses is approved by parliament. It's to fob you off with excuses in a hope you give up your complaint.

In the meantime, while this is being looked at, Deploy the NTPNTL. Its a Notice to Produce and Notice to Leave. It puts the bailiff on notice he is required by statute to produce his documents and evidence of his ID and warrant (or liability order), which you can make copies using your mobile and order the bailiff to leave the premises using an Act of Parliament.

You can post the documents here on this forum with your personal details hidden (including any bar-codes). We can tell you if they are kosher. Here is a template.

Also this post by Mark1960 nicely summarises the pros and cons of using the notice.

Have your mobile phone camera set to record video. Wear it on a lanyard around your neck with the camera facing outwards. If you get trouble then call the police on 999 and hand a copy of this document to a police officer through a window making sure you get it on camera. Try to capture everything on video without the bailiff knowing.

If the bailiff gets shouty or kicking the door then he commits an offence under section 4 of the Public Order Act 1986 and it is the bailiff the police must place under arrest and your video can be given in evidence.
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