Paid fine online

Quash the Conviction. Revoke the Fees. Claim Damages for Improper Enforcement Action
Post Reply
User avatar
Michelle
Moderator
Posts: 1806
Joined: 10 Nov 2014 14:42
Location: Nuvion

#106 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Michelle » 20 Mar 2017 20:52

Twixi wrote:
20 Mar 2017 15:24
Debt collection, I asked for help, gave my mobile, got a call from a debt agency.
What sort of debt agency? Debt collectors have no powers and are only used for civil debts not subject to a judgment, where the creditor cannot enforce it with bailiffs. They wouldn't be used to collect fines, not when they can be enforced with bailiffs who have much greater powers.

Could be a debt management company instead which is all the opposite, i.e. a company that specialises in setting up affordable repayment plans. The free ones such as Stepchange don't go round cold calling people, there are a number of fee charging debt management companies, some rip you off more than others. :evil: Do you recall the company name?
Listen very carefully, I shall post this only once:
Anything posted by me is from my own knowledge and experience, it is not legal advice or the official views of this forum.

Knowledge is Power.

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#107 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 20 Mar 2017 22:08

Sadly no, and they never called back.
That doesn't concern me though, I definitely won't be seeking advice from any other forum but this one.
And I certainly won't be steering anyone in their direction either.
Jason has been fantastic, and his knowledge has been outstanding. I wasnt clued up about the legislation, but he explained things perfectly.
As have all who have helped me with my issues with Marston's 😊

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#108 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 21 Mar 2017 19:38

So received an email from Shirley, from Bailiff Advice Online, I've screen shot some of it,


Be greatful to get some clarity 😊
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6009
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#109 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Pote Snitkin » 21 Mar 2017 19:54

But as 'Shirley' and everyone else knows, Shailesh Vara was mistaken in his reply. Nowhere in the Act he refers to does it say what he believes, absolutely nowhere. He has relied upon some civil servant to feed him the answer without bothering to check if it's accurate.

Shailesh Vara was removed from his post shortly after giving that reply.
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#110 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 21 Mar 2017 19:59

Thank Pote, I have sent Jason a full copy of the ail she sent.
I've been over there act, and nowhere does it say what she's claiming.

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#111 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 21 Mar 2017 20:01

And apologies for the awful spelling, fat thumb's and no glasses I'm afraid 😊

User avatar
jasonDWB
Posts: 14810
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Contact:

#112 Re: Paid fine online

Post by jasonDWB » 21 Mar 2017 20:03

She advises that apportionment applies to money paid to the creditor.

Apportionment is not enforcement regulation terminology. It was coined by me on this forum and she borrowed it.


It refers to regulation 13 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 which states:
  • Application of proceeds where less than the amount outstanding

    13.—(1) Subject to paragraph 50(6) of Schedule 12, when the proceeds from the exercise of an enforcement power are less than the amount outstanding, they must be applied in accordance with this regulation.

    (2) Where the goods are sold or disposed of at public auction (other than by internet auction), the proceeds must be applied first in payment of the auctioneer’s fees calculated in accordance with regulation 9(2) or (3) as appropriate.

    (3) Following the payment at paragraph (2), the enforcement agent may then recover the compliance fee.

    (4) Subject to paragraph (5), following any payment due by virtue of paragraphs (2) and (3), the proceeds must be applied pro rata in payment of—

    • (a)the sum to be recovered, and

      (b)any remaining amounts recoverable in respect of fees and disbursements payable to the enforcement agent in accordance with these Regulations.


    (5) Where the same legal person is both the creditor and the enforcement agent, paragraph (4) does not apply and the proceeds must be applied in payment of the amount referred to in paragraph (4)(b) before payment of the amount at paragraph (4)(a).

    (6) In paragraphs (4) and (5), references to the proceeds are to the proceeds after deduction of the sums, if any, to which paragraphs (2) and (3) relate.
If she read the legislation. It says Application of proceeds where less than the amount outstanding


"Proceeds of enforcement" is money raised from the sale of controlled goods. Section 62 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 defines enforcement to be:
  • taking control of goods and selling them to recover a sum of money



Whenever someone gives legal advice without giving the source legislation, you can treat is accordingly.







A warrant of control for an unpaid court fine is issued under section 76 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980. It states:

  • 76 Enforcement of sums adjudged to be paid.

    (1)Subject to the following provisions of this Part of this Act, and to section 132 below, where default is made in paying a sum adjudged to be paid by a conviction or order of a magistrates’ court, the court may issue a warrant of distress for the purpose of levying the sum or issue a warrant committing the defaulter to prison.




The power conferred under the warrant only extends to the "sum adjudged". Once that sum is paid, the warrant ceases to have effect. Paragraph 6(3) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 states:
  • (3)The property in all goods ceases to be bound when any of these happens

    • (a)the amount outstanding is paid, out of the proceeds of sale or otherwise;

      (b)the instrument under which the power is exercisable ceases to have effect;

      (c)the power ceases to be exercisable for any other reason.






The "amount outstanding" is defined in paragraph 50(3) of Schedule 12 of the TCEA 2007:

  • (3)The amount outstanding is the sum of these

    • (a)the amount of the debt which remains unpaid (or an amount that the creditor agrees to accept in full satisfaction of the debt);

      (b)any amounts recoverable out of proceeds in accordance with regulations under paragraph 62 (costs).


Under sub-section (a). That is the "amount outstanding" or "sum adjudged" under section 76 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980.

Under sub-section (b). That is amounts recoverable out of "proceeds". Paragraph 62 costs are:



  • 2(1)Regulations may make provision for the recovery by any person from the debtor of amounts in respect of costs of enforcement-related services.





"Enforcement" is defined in section 62 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007:

  • taking control of goods and selling them to recover a sum of money



Nothing in legislation says bailiffs can take an enforcement step to recover fees after the enforcement power has ceased.

The Ministry of Justice concurs with this because it published guidelines for enforcement agents. The Taking Control of Goods National Standards 2014:




Guideline 31 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 says:
  • Enforcement agents must not seek to enforce the recovery of fees where an enforcement power has ceased to be exercisable.





If a bailiff takes an enforcement step after the enforcement power has ceased, then he is in breach of provision 6 of Schedule 12. The debtor can sue by bringing an action under Paragraph 66 of Schedule 12:

  • 66(1)This paragraph applies where an enforcement agent

    • (a)breaches a provision of this Schedule, or

      (b)acts under an enforcement power under a writ, warrant, liability order or other instrument that is defective.


    (2)The breach or defect does not make the enforcement agent, or a person he is acting for, a trespasser.

    (3)But the debtor may bring proceedings under this paragraph.

    (4)Subject to rules of court, the proceedings may be brought—

    • (a)in the High Court, in relation to an enforcement power under a writ of the High Court;

      (b)in a county court, in relation to an enforcement power under a warrant issued by a county court;

      (c)in any other case, in the High Court or a county court.


    (5)In the proceedings the court may

    • (a)order goods to be returned to the debtor;

      (b)order the enforcement agent or a related party to pay damages in respect of loss suffered by the debtor as a result of the breach or of anything done under the defective instrument.

      (6)A related party is either of the following (if different from the enforcement agent)—

      • (a)the person on whom the enforcement power is conferred,

        (b)the creditor.


      (7)Sub-paragraph (5) is without prejudice to any other powers of the court.

      (8)Sub-paragraph (5)(b) does not apply where the enforcement agent acted in the reasonable belief—

      • (a)that he was not breaching a provision of this Schedule, or

        (b)(as the case may be) that the instrument was not defective.


      (9)This paragraph is subject to paragraph 59 in the case of a breach of paragraph 58(3).
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs. Beat the Bailiffs
Instant phone consultation with me: Click here

User avatar
Pote Snitkin
The Watcher
Posts: 6009
Joined: 28 Apr 2014 09:43
Location: In your loft, waiting

#113 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Pote Snitkin » 21 Mar 2017 20:07

Twixi wrote:
21 Mar 2017 19:59
I've been over there act, and nowhere does it say what she's claiming.
Indeed it doesn't but she continues to rely upon it. It would be impossible for that Act to mention anything about £75 fees, pro-rata splits and all that - the Act was drawn up in 2007, 7 years before the regulations were made detailing fees and how they are split. It's astounding that someone like Shailesh Vara, who considers himself an educated man, could make such a childish error.

The truth is regulation 17 states that 'the amount outstanding' and 'fees' are two separate amounts, and once 'the amount outstanding' is paid, the enforcement power ends.
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#114 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 21 Mar 2017 20:14

Thanks guys, your awesome. 😊

User avatar
jasonDWB
Posts: 14810
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Contact:

#115 Re: Paid fine online

Post by jasonDWB » 21 Mar 2017 20:17

Reg 17 is:


  • 17.—(1) The enforcement agent may not recover fees or disbursements from the debtor in relation to any stage of enforcement undertaken at a time when the relevant enforcement power has ceased to be exercisable.


What it says on the tin.





  • (2) Paragraph (1) does not apply where the enforcement power ceases to be exercisable because the debtor has paid the amount outstanding or that amount has been recovered from proceeds or otherwise.

That is why I can't say to clients the fees are not owed. The law only stops the enforcement power.

The bailiff can only recover them by applying for another warrant of control (enforcement power).



Time for them to put away the tin hats.
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs. Beat the Bailiffs
Instant phone consultation with me: Click here

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#116 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 21 Mar 2017 20:34

Thanks Jason, for the clarity. How is she getting away with this ?

User avatar
jasonDWB
Posts: 14810
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Contact:

#117 Re: Paid fine online

Post by jasonDWB » 21 Mar 2017 20:36

She doesn't. The public are not so stupid. They work out her website is a front for a debtor tracing service.
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs. Beat the Bailiffs
Instant phone consultation with me: Click here

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#118 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 21 Mar 2017 21:50

Didn't that bloke try and claim expenses before he was elected or something, I'm sure I read that somewhere, the name rings a bell.

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#119 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 27 Apr 2017 08:18

Hello everyone, it's been a while hope your well,.
So after a spell in hospital, came home last night, and this morning guess who came a knocking, yep a new EA, wanting £310, their fee stating it's on behalf of hmcts etc.
So it's seems they are using the warranty for a fine that's been paid.
Any ideas of what to do :)

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#120 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 27 Apr 2017 08:35

Just to add, it's not a new fine, it's the one I paid, and Jason kindly helped out with, Marstons are being quite difficult.

User avatar
jasonDWB
Posts: 14810
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Contact:

#121 Re: Paid fine online

Post by jasonDWB » 27 Apr 2017 10:37

Marston has introduced a new policy.

After a Paragraph 59 notice is given, then send a different bailiff to have a go at the fees.

Just text him a copy of the paragraph 59 Notice.

It already states it applies to all agents instructed with the warrant. That encompasses any other bailiff Marstons send round to have a go at the fees.

Channel 4 is making a documentary on Marston, get your PM for the contact details.
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs. Beat the Bailiffs
Instant phone consultation with me: Click here

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#122 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 27 Apr 2017 10:54

I see,they are obviously walking a thin line then, I mean they know they can't enforce fee's using a warrant that's technically nul and void as the debt has been paid.
I know it's the fee's because it's for £310, doesnt have a HMCTS ref just Thier reference.

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#123 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 27 Apr 2017 12:48

So are they trying their luck then ? Won't be bullied this time 😠

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#124 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 28 Apr 2017 17:13

Hi Jason, just a quick one.
Shall I send him a copy of the receipt as well as well as the Paragraph 59 ? Or just the paragraph 59.
And do I need to send one to the head office again.
Thanks for all your help, so far 😊

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#125 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 29 Apr 2017 11:21

So had the delightful man from Marston's back at 7.45 this morning, I spoke to him through a window.
Hes claiming I still owe £310 for "court costs" I told him that the fine had been paid , and that you can't use the warrant to claim fee's even even though they may be owed.
He said that's not how it works, I said yes it pretty much is.
I also asked to.see the warrant and he said I didn't need to see it.
He then said he'll seek a warrant from the court to gain access, as I'm in the wrong.
I told him you can try, and asked him to leave.
He wasn't happy.
What should i do now.

User avatar
jasonDWB
Posts: 14810
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Contact:

#126 Re: Paid fine online

Post by jasonDWB » 29 Apr 2017 21:16

Nothing. If he comes back and prayers you then get it on video. You can also injunct any bailiff not acting in execution of duty
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs. Beat the Bailiffs
Instant phone consultation with me: Click here

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#127 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 30 Apr 2017 08:43

Thanks Jason, also did you get the email I sent yesterday

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#128 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 03 May 2017 09:25

Want to say a big thank you to Jason and the team, not sure if we have success yet but your help and advice has been invaluable.
Regardless of what others have said, and emailed me.
The law is there to protect not to be used to gain advantage over others, who have found themselves in a difficult position.
Jason is aware of the communication I've received, and every time I receive one I'll keep him in the loop 😊

User avatar
jasonDWB
Posts: 14810
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 21:23
Contact:

#129 Re: Paid fine online

Post by jasonDWB » 03 May 2017 09:36

Sheila will get Marston to deliberately target you by threatening to break entry. I recommend you to call the police and hand in the names and addresses I have given along with the email communication you received. You can ask the police to contact me.

If anything happens, you have suspects to pursue.
Author, Dealing with Bailiffs. Beat the Bailiffs
Instant phone consultation with me: Click here

Twixi
Posts: 74
Joined: 10 Mar 2017 11:54

#130 Re: Paid fine online

Post by Twixi » 03 May 2017 09:40

Thanks Jason, I'll let you know what happens 😊

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 1 guest