PCN passed to debt collectors

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Perrer
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#1 PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Perrer » 28 Mar 2017 17:15

Posting on behalf of my mother.

She received an email from a DCA today stating she has an unpaid PCN from a council. After phoning the number, it turns out she owes £515 for an unpaid PCN from April 2016, however she has not received any correspondence as her log book for her car is still registered to her old address.

This is the first she has heard of this, and as she is a foster carer with no assets or money, she is now panicking.

I know very little about this legally, however if anyone can offer any advice on whether there is a way we can get this reduced, or whether it's even legal to charge £515 for a £50 ticket.

DCA said warrant was issued in December 2016, and that they attempted to visit her old address but couldn't gain entry.

Is there anything we can do?
She has no money, so if she does have to pay, will they let her pay weekly? Will they take a reduced payment if I paid for her in full?

DCA has requested all communication via email so thought I'd get some advice before emailing them.

Thanks.

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#2 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Schedule 12 » 28 Mar 2017 18:37

Perrer wrote:
28 Mar 2017 17:15
Posting on behalf of my mother.

She received an email from a DCA today stating she has an unpaid PCN from a council. After phoning the number, it turns out she owes £515 for an unpaid PCN from April 2016, however she has not received any correspondence as her log book for her car is still registered to her old address.

Enforcement fails. The correspondence went to her old address. The law says the debtor must be given notice. Paragraph 7 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 states:
  • 7(1)An enforcement agent may not take control of goods unless the debtor has been given notice.



The law that decides whether documents are given by ordinary post is section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978, which states:
  • References to service by post.

    Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

The evidence proving the contrary is the warrant of control having the wrong address on it. It will be her previous address.




This is the first she has heard of this, and as she is a foster carer with no assets or money, she is now panicking.

I know very little about this legally, however if anyone can offer any advice on whether there is a way we can get this reduced, or whether it's even legal to charge £515 for a £50 ticket.
Its £515 for a £60 ticket. It's legal, but your mum does have remedy under the law.





DCA said warrant was issued in December 2016, and that they attempted to visit her old address but couldn't gain entry.
The bailiff admitted the address is wrong. He cooked his own goose. He has performed trace action to find her current address and that contradicts guideline #12 of the Taking Control of Goods National Standards 2014, which states:

  • Creditors must not issue a warrant knowing that the debtor is not at the address, as a means of tracing the debtor at no cost.




Is there anything we can do?
She must appeal the ticket. Its called an out of time statutory declaration. It might be a late witness statement depending on the type of PCN.

Get the PCN Number. It starts with two characters followed by eight numbers. Telephone the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) on 0300 123 1059. When you hear the robot, press 8. Then when the call is answered, give the PCN number. They will ask to "confirm" the address. Give your mothers PREVIOUS address. The TEC will email you the forms to complete. Your mum will need to sign them at a local county court. Attach evidence of your CURRENT address. The TEC will revoke the enforcement and roll the PCN back to the original £60. She can appeal the contravention or pay the £60.

Enforcement is only suspended AFTER the forms are emailed back to the TEC. Until then, the enforcement,. although non-compliant, is still live. Paragraph 8.1 of Practice Direction 75.




She has no money, so if she does have to pay,
She doesn't need to pay. She has a right to appeal. Act now without delay otherwise the bailiff will pester you.





will they let her pay weekly?

No.





Will they take a reduced payment if I paid for her in full?
No they won't.





DCA has requested all communication via email so thought I'd get some advice before emailing them.

DO NOT email the DCA (Bailiff company). The TEC will inform them when you have returned the signed appeal forms. They will be off your back from the moment the forms are emailed to the TEC.




Thanks.
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Perrer
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#3 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Perrer » 28 Mar 2017 19:20

jasonDWB wrote:
28 Mar 2017 18:37
Perrer wrote:
28 Mar 2017 17:15
Posting on behalf of my mother.

She received an email from a DCA today stating she has an unpaid PCN from a council. After phoning the number, it turns out she owes £515 for an unpaid PCN from April 2016, however she has not received any correspondence as her log book for her car is still registered to her old address.

Enforcement fails. The correspondence went to her old address. The law says the debtor must be given notice. Paragraph 7 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 states:
  • 7(1)An enforcement agent may not take control of goods unless the debtor has been given notice.



The law that decides whether documents are given by ordinary post is section 7 of the Interpretation Act 1978, which states:
  • References to service by post.

    Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

The evidence proving the contrary is the warrant of control having the wrong address on it. It will be her previous address.




This is the first she has heard of this, and as she is a foster carer with no assets or money, she is now panicking.

I know very little about this legally, however if anyone can offer any advice on whether there is a way we can get this reduced, or whether it's even legal to charge £515 for a £50 ticket.
Its £515 for a £60 ticket. It's legal, but your mum does have remedy under the law.





DCA said warrant was issued in December 2016, and that they attempted to visit her old address but couldn't gain entry.
The bailiff admitted the address is wrong. He cooked his own goose. He has performed trace action to find her current address and that contradicts guideline #12 of the Taking Control of Goods National Standards 2014, which states:

  • Creditors must not issue a warrant knowing that the debtor is not at the address, as a means of tracing the debtor at no cost.




Is there anything we can do?
She must appeal the ticket. Its called an out of time statutory declaration. It might be a late witness statement depending on the type of PCN.

Get the PCN Number. It starts with two characters followed by eight numbers. Telephone the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) on 0300 123 1059. When you hear the robot, press 8. Then when the call is answered, give the PCN number. They will ask to "confirm" the address. Give your mothers PREVIOUS address. The TEC will email you the forms to complete. Your mum will need to sign them at a local county court. Attach evidence of your CURRENT address. The TEC will revoke the enforcement and roll the PCN back to the original £60. She can appeal the contravention or pay the £60.

Enforcement is only suspended AFTER the forms are emailed back to the TEC. Until then, the enforcement,. although non-compliant, is still live. Paragraph 8.1 of Practice Direction 75.




She has no money, so if she does have to pay,
She doesn't need to pay. She has a right to appeal. Act now without delay otherwise the bailiff will pester you.





will they let her pay weekly?

No.





Will they take a reduced payment if I paid for her in full?
No they won't.





DCA has requested all communication via email so thought I'd get some advice before emailing them.

DO NOT email the DCA (Bailiff company). The TEC will inform them when you have returned the signed appeal forms. They will be off your back from the moment the forms are emailed to the TEC.




Thanks.
Great, thank you.

When she moved in 2015, she changed the address on her driver's license, however for whatever reason the log book on the car was not updated to her new address. Would this result in a refused out of time statutory declaration as they can say she did not update the log book?

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#4 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Schedule 12 » 28 Mar 2017 19:34

No it won't. But the bailiff will give the yadda-yadda about failing to notify DVLA
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#5 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Perrer » 28 Mar 2017 19:39

jasonDWB wrote:
28 Mar 2017 19:34
No it won't. But the bailiff will give the yadda-yadda about failing to notify DVLA
Great, thanks. I'll get her to call them tomorrow to get the ball rolling.

After speaking to her more tonight, she informed me she panicked after receiving the email from DCA and phoned the DCA and has given them her correct address now. The DCA told her on the phone they'll put her case on hold for 7 days. Not sure if this hinders anything, but we can only try and follow your advice and hope for the best.

She has never missed a payment before, and feels anxious about this. She thinks her credit report is now ruined and they're going to come and take her lease car away (the original car in question has been sold).

Fingers crossed they don't turn up at her door tomorrow.

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#6 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Schedule 12 » 28 Mar 2017 19:42

Lease car is unavailable to schedule 12 enforcement. It's quite safe.
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#7 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Perrer » 28 Mar 2017 19:46

jasonDWB wrote:
28 Mar 2017 19:42
Lease car is unavailable to schedule 12 enforcement. It's quite safe.
Great, I'll pass that on. Will she have a CCJ on her credit report now as a result of this?

Thanks for your help. :)

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#8 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Schedule 12 » 29 Mar 2017 07:46

No.
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#9 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Perrer » 29 Mar 2017 17:13

jasonDWB wrote:
29 Mar 2017 07:46
No.
Thank you for your help.

We phoned them today, forms were emailed, I got them signed at the local county court and have emailed them back to TEC. Fingers crossed it's approved. :)

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#10 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Schedule 12 » 29 Mar 2017 18:13

It takes about 4 to six weeks.

Enforcement is suspended under Practice Direction 75, Paragraph 8.1
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#11 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Perrer » 07 Apr 2017 14:54

jasonDWB wrote:
29 Mar 2017 18:13
It takes about 4 to six weeks.

Enforcement is suspended under Practice Direction 75, Paragraph 8.1
The bailiffs replied to an email from myself where I requested breakdown of fees and a copy of the warrant. The warrant has the new address on it which my mother told the bailiff company over the phone. Can they simply update the warrant themselves with the new details or do they need to go back to court to change it?

Fees they have charged are

Fees
Date
Type
Amount
12/04/2016
Costs
8.00
12/04/2016
Debt
195.00
05/12/2016
Compliance
75.00
20/12/2016
Enforcement
235.00


Their email states

Further to your emails we acknowledge the content, the compliance fee of £75.00 was incurred on 05/12/2016 when sending out the Notice of Enforcement the schedule of fees has been attached. The enforcement fee of £235.00 was incurred when the agent Mr Weavers attended (Old address we no longer live at) on 20/12/2016 prior to us being advised you were no longer at the address.



The only attendance to date was on 20/12/2016 by (Agent name), the certificate was issued at Oxford Combined Court Centre on 12/05/2016, you can also confirm this on the Certificated Bailiff Register https://certificatedbailiffs.justice.go ... dBailiffs/ .

A breakdown of the total balance of £513.00 has been attached as requested along with a copy of the warrant of control.



We have been notified that you have completed a Statutory Declaration out of time/Witness Statement out of time and have been advised by our client to put the case on hold pending the outcome of the application.

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#12 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Schedule 12 » 07 Apr 2017 16:09

Perrer wrote:
07 Apr 2017 14:54
jasonDWB wrote:
29 Mar 2017 18:13
It takes about 4 to six weeks.

Enforcement is suspended under Practice Direction 75, Paragraph 8.1
The bailiffs replied to an email from myself where I requested breakdown of fees and a copy of the warrant. The warrant has the new address on it which my mother told the bailiff company over the phone. Can they simply update the warrant themselves with the new details or do they need to go back to court to change it?
Bailiffs are not entitled to edit the warrant by changing the debtors address on it.

Phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) on 0300 123 1059, (Press option 6 to skip the robot), then give the PCN Number. If they ask to "confirm" the address, say that your enquiry is what address is on the warrant.





Fees they have charged are

Fees
Date
Type
Amount
12/04/2016
Costs
8.00
12/04/2016
Debt
195.00
05/12/2016
Compliance
75.00
20/12/2016
Enforcement
235.00


Their email states

Further to your emails we acknowledge the content, the compliance fee of £75.00 was incurred on 05/12/2016 when sending out the Notice of Enforcement the schedule of fees has been attached. The enforcement fee of £235.00 was incurred when the agent Mr Weavers attended (Old address we no longer live at) on 20/12/2016 prior to us being advised you were no longer at the address.

Enforcement fails, They admitted having the wrong address, and the wrong address proves you were not given a Notice of enforcement.

The law says the debtor must be given notice. Paragraph 7(1) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 says:

  • 7(1)An enforcement agent may not take control of goods unless the debtor has been given notice.
The bailiff is unable to recover any fees from you. Regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 states:
  • Application of these Regulations

    3. These Regulations apply when an enforcement agent uses the Schedule 12 procedure.





The only attendance to date was on 20/12/2016 by (Agent name), the certificate was issued at Oxford Combined Court Centre on 12/05/2016, you can also confirm this on the Certificated Bailiff Register https://certificatedbailiffs.justice.go ... dBailiffs/ .
What is the agents name?








A breakdown of the total balance of £513.00 has been attached as requested along with a copy of the warrant of control.
£310 of that is not owed.

As the address on the warrant is wrong, and while on the phone to the TEC, say you want to appeal, they will email you the forms. Your grounds the address is wrong and you were not given the Notice to Owner (NTO).

Enforcement is suspended at 4pm the day you email back the completed forms to the TEC.






We have been notified that you have completed a Statutory Declaration out of time/Witness Statement out of time and have been advised by our client to put the case on hold pending the outcome of the application.

That is correct. Hopefully you mentioned that the address is wrong, you had moved, and the bailiff sought to make an enforcement step at your new address knowing the warrant has your old address on it.
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#13 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Perrer » 07 Apr 2017 19:25

jasonDWB wrote:
07 Apr 2017 16:09
Perrer wrote:
07 Apr 2017 14:54
jasonDWB wrote:
29 Mar 2017 18:13
It takes about 4 to six weeks.

Enforcement is suspended under Practice Direction 75, Paragraph 8.1
The bailiffs replied to an email from myself where I requested breakdown of fees and a copy of the warrant. The warrant has the new address on it which my mother told the bailiff company over the phone. Can they simply update the warrant themselves with the new details or do they need to go back to court to change it?
Bailiffs are not entitled to edit the warrant by changing the debtors address on it.

Phone the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) on 0300 123 1059, (Press option 6 to skip the robot), then give the PCN Number. If they ask to "confirm" the address, say that your enquiry is what address is on the warrant.





Fees they have charged are

Fees
Date
Type
Amount
12/04/2016
Costs
8.00
12/04/2016
Debt
195.00
05/12/2016
Compliance
75.00
20/12/2016
Enforcement
235.00


Their email states

Further to your emails we acknowledge the content, the compliance fee of £75.00 was incurred on 05/12/2016 when sending out the Notice of Enforcement the schedule of fees has been attached. The enforcement fee of £235.00 was incurred when the agent Mr Weavers attended (Old address we no longer live at) on 20/12/2016 prior to us being advised you were no longer at the address.

Enforcement fails, They admitted having the wrong address, and the wrong address proves you were not given a Notice of enforcement.

The law says the debtor must be given notice. Paragraph 7(1) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 says:

  • 7(1)An enforcement agent may not take control of goods unless the debtor has been given notice.
The bailiff is unable to recover any fees from you. Regulation 3 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 states:
  • Application of these Regulations

    3. These Regulations apply when an enforcement agent uses the Schedule 12 procedure.





The only attendance to date was on 20/12/2016 by (Agent name), the certificate was issued at Oxford Combined Court Centre on 12/05/2016, you can also confirm this on the Certificated Bailiff Register https://certificatedbailiffs.justice.go ... dBailiffs/ .
What is the agents name?








A breakdown of the total balance of £513.00 has been attached as requested along with a copy of the warrant of control.
£310 of that is not owed.

As the address on the warrant is wrong, and while on the phone to the TEC, say you want to appeal, they will email you the forms. Your grounds the address is wrong and you were not given the Notice to Owner (NTO).

Enforcement is suspended at 4pm the day you email back the completed forms to the TEC.






We have been notified that you have completed a Statutory Declaration out of time/Witness Statement out of time and have been advised by our client to put the case on hold pending the outcome of the application.

That is correct. Hopefully you mentioned that the address is wrong, you had moved, and the bailiff sought to make an enforcement step at your new address knowing the warrant has your old address on it.
I checked with TEC, the warrant was issued at the previous address. The warrant I received today from the bailliff company has our current address on it, however it states 'Name and address of respondent' and not 'address warrant issued for'... I've attached a copy of the warrant below.

I've filed for an out of time statutory declaration, currently waiting to see if it's approved or refused. I put on the statutory declaration we did not live at the address when the warrant or penalty notice was issued. I also attached evidence in the form of rental agreements to show this. I've heard however that mostly all Out of time statutory declarations are refused.
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#14 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Schedule 12 » 07 Apr 2017 20:37

The enforcement is suspended pending the outcome of your appeal.

The likely result is the PCN is rolled back to the original PCN where you can either do one of three things:

  • Pay it
    Appeal the contravention, or
    Name the driver in charge of the vehicle.

The bailiffs are off your back. They shouldn't have cheated by doctoring the defendants address on the warrant. It's actually a criminal offence under section 7 of the Fraud Act 2006.
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#15 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Perrer » 23 Apr 2017 13:41

jasonDWB wrote:
07 Apr 2017 20:37
The enforcement is suspended pending the outcome of your appeal.

The likely result is the PCN is rolled back to the original PCN where you can either do one of three things:

  • Pay it
    Appeal the contravention, or
    Name the driver in charge of the vehicle.

The bailiffs are off your back. They shouldn't have cheated by doctoring the defendants address on the warrant. It's actually a criminal offence under section 7 of the Fraud Act 2006.
Can you advise, if an out-of-time statutory declaration is rejected, does bailiff action resume immediately, or do we get X amount of days to file N244 before action is resumed?

No decision made yet. I did send a few emails r.e. address on warrant. Bailiff company, local authority, and TEC all stated something completely different. TEC stated warrant has always been at out new address (incorrect). Bailiffs said they requested local authority to change address (they didn't), local authority stated they never changed the address on warrant, or requested it be changed. At the moment, there are 2 warrants, completely different, one of them not legal. Thankfully neither enforceable at the moment.

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#16 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Schedule 12 » 23 Apr 2017 14:06

Enforcement resume where it left off unless the TEC decides otherwise.

In your case, the address is wrong, so enforcement will probably be cancelled, but the council will be allowed to restart the process of recovering the PCN from new.
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#17 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Perrer » 08 May 2017 11:47

jasonDWB wrote:
23 Apr 2017 14:06
Enforcement resume where it left off unless the TEC decides otherwise.

In your case, the address is wrong, so enforcement will probably be cancelled, but the council will be allowed to restart the process of recovering the PCN from new.
The out of time statutory declaration was rejected. I'm going to file the N244 however shall I pay the bailiffs so they do not turn up at the property between now and when I've submitted the N244?

Ironically the bailiffs admitted in an email to altering the warrants address without permission from TEC, they stated it was an error on their part. I have a complaint outstanding with the local authority.

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#18 Re: PCN passed to debt collectors

Post by Schedule 12 » 08 May 2017 12:43

We don't have a resident parking appeals expert on this forum. I would certainly like to find one because we are predominantly helping people with bailiff issues.

The question I can't answer is:

Are you allowed to enter new evidence the address on the warrant is wrong on an N244 when it was not available to the TEC adjudicator?




It looks to me the council breached part 75.7 of the Civil Procedure rules which states:
  • (7) Where the address of the respondent has changed since the issue of the warrant, the authority may request the reissue of the warrant by filing a request –

    (a) specifying the new address of the respondent;

    (b) providing evidence that the new address for the respondent does relate to the respondent named in the order and against whom enforcement is sought; and

    (c) certifying that the amount due under the order remains unpaid.


Phone the TEC on 0300 123 1059 and press 6 to skip homo robotus. When a homo sapien speaks, give the PCN number.

From CPR 75.7 above, about the warrant, ask for the:
  • a) DATE OF ISSUE
    b) ADDRESS OF RESPONDENT
    c) THE AMOUNT DUE

If the DATE on the warrant is AFTER you moved, then gather your evidence of your moving to your new address and exhibit it with your form N244. You can appeal on one count error of law, breach of CPR 75.7 failure to reissue the warrant when the bailiff discovered a new address, and one count error of fact, disregarded the fact the respondent has changed address. Attach a copy of the bailiff's email with their admission. Apply for your costs.
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