Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Quash the Conviction. Revoke the Fees. Claim Damages for Improper Enforcement Action
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Justin1971
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#1 Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Justin1971 » 15 Jun 2017 17:39

Mum Age now 67 received PCN for littering Cigarette butt. Magistrates gave no opportunity for case as per CrimProcRules, mum fell to pieces, I sought right of audience (failure of advice by Legal Adviser), Incorrect in law advice PACE 76 & 78 evidence (again incorrect legal advice of adviser) Mum 'can't' realistically appeal NOT UP TO IT.

I AM awaiting judgement for permission for Judicial Review, mum has stopped paying by installments some time ago.

Mum received bland notice of intention to enter, search, citing 'Magistrates Warrant' giving powers of 'reasonable force' under TCE Act 2007
No definite indication of what kind of warrant, or whether they're definitely in possession of one.

QUESTION - can I check to see if a warrant has been issued - should my mother not have been told of hearing given that TCE Sched 12 s.15 says court must be satisfied under all circumstances reasonable to issue ?

This supposed notice is not the one from schedule in Certification of Enforcement Agents Regs 2014 as pointed to by 'beat the bailiffs help'. But TCE Act 2007 sched 12 s.19A only say regs should say what should be on the notice, I find no instruction that it must be the afore mentioned schedule.
QUESTION - does it have to be the Certification of Enforcement Agents Regs 2014 Schedule NOTICE and if so where does it say this ?

Justin1971
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#2 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Justin1971 » 15 Jun 2017 17:45

ALSO. Mum lives in Rented Council House - can they use a lock smith ? CAN'T FIND EDIT FACILITY

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#3 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Pote Snitkin » 15 Jun 2017 18:34

We need to wind this back a bit. I assume you mean a FPN (fixed penalty notice) rather than a PCN. Who issued the notice? Did Mum receive a fine through the post? What letters came after that if it remained unpaid? When was the 'offence' and when did court proceedings begin?

Once we've established the groundwork, further advice can be given.
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

Justin1971
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#4 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Justin1971 » 15 Jun 2017 18:54

Pote Snitkin wrote:
15 Jun 2017 18:34
We need to wind this back a bit. I assume you mean a FPN (fixed penalty notice) rather than a PCN. Who issued the notice? Did Mum receive a fine through the post? What letters came after that if it remained unpaid? When was the 'offence' and when did court proceedings begin?

Once we've established the groundwork, further advice can be given.
MY BAD, YES, FPN, handed ticket, went to court, got conviction unjustly as outlined, magistrates just seeking to rubber stamp conviction. No need to rewind too much I would have thought. It is a straight forward failure to keep her monthly payments up as agreed in £300+ fine & costs conviction.

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#5 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Pote Snitkin » 15 Jun 2017 18:58

There's a few gaps there; perhaps the FPN was non-compliant in the first place - was Mum asked to pick up the butt? Did she not pay or appeal the FPN at the time? If unpaid after 14 days, what notices did she receive? We need to know the date of the FPN and the date court proceedings were started.
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

Justin1971
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#6 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Justin1971 » 15 Jun 2017 19:12

Pote Snitkin wrote:
15 Jun 2017 18:58
There's a few gaps there; perhaps the FPN was non-compliant in the first place
It went to court, the defence was that it wasn't compliant, I have a bundle with the Administrative court 204 pages long, the current issue is I don't want them to drill my mothers locks out. The issue I have is public interest for Judicial Review in gross neglect of procedures at Mag. Ct.

Please don't ask for all the details surrounding this issue, just need to know what can be done in regards of the impending 'reasonable force' - OR AS requested, the questions put:

QUESTION - can I check to see if a warrant has been issued - should my mother not have been told of hearing given that TCE Sched 12 s.15 says court must be satisfied under all circumstances reasonable to issue ?

QUESTION - does it have to be the Certification of Enforcement Agents Regs 2014 Schedule NOTICE and if so where does it say this ?

ALSO. Mum lives in Rented Council House - can they use a lock smith ?

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#7 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Pote Snitkin » 15 Jun 2017 19:21

Ok, if you want to deal with it as it is then:

No - there is no requirement for an 'all party hearing' to issue a warrant for an unpaid fine.

The regs you state are irrelevant. Once the warrant is issued, the procedure is under the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 and the attached Taking Control of Goods regulations.

Yes, they can use a locksmith on a council property.
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

Justin1971
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#8 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Justin1971 » 15 Jun 2017 19:29

Cheers for that.

Do we have to wait for the guy to turn up to find out if a genuine warrant has been issued ?

That being the case, I suppose it is best for 'us' to pay it, and hope to get the monies back through 'my' Judicial Review.

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#9 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Pote Snitkin » 15 Jun 2017 19:44

If they make a visit, they'll add a further £235 to the debt. They will have already added a £75 fee. The bailiff doesn't have to carry a copy of the warrant - a long standing bone of contention we have - but they can arrange for Mum to see a copy. Remember, to force entry they don't need to satisfy you that they have a warrant, they just have to satisfy the court.
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

Justin1971
Posts: 8
Joined: 15 Jun 2017 17:10
Location: Wigan

#10 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Justin1971 » 15 Jun 2017 19:54

Pote Snitkin wrote:
15 Jun 2017 19:44
The bailiff doesn't have to carry a copy of the warrant. Remember, to force entry they don't need to satisfy you that they have a warrant, they just have to satisfy the court.
That doesn't sound right. The court issues the warrant, and the warrant is the authority by which they mean to enter !

Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007
26
(1)
The enforcement agent must on request show the debtor and any person who appears to him to be in charge of the premises evidence of—
(a)
his identity, and
(b)
his authority to enter the premises.
(2)
The request may be made before the enforcement agent enters the premises or while he is there.

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#11 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Pote Snitkin » 15 Jun 2017 20:01

Yep that's what it says - his identity will be his ID badge, the authority is the warrant.... the contradiction being that they don't have to carry the warrant, they only have to arrange for it to be seen. This has been a long standing debate on these forums.
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

Justin1971
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Joined: 15 Jun 2017 17:10
Location: Wigan

#12 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Justin1971 » 15 Jun 2017 20:14

Pote Snitkin wrote:
15 Jun 2017 20:01
Yep that's what it says - his identity will be his ID badge, the authority is the warrant.... the contradiction being that they don't have to carry the warrant, they only have to arrange for it to be seen. This has been a long standing debate on these forums.
Has this been tested at Appeals / High Court ? ie is there case law to back this particular interpretation ?

Just re-reading the notice, and it says Magistrates Warrant, but it will be a County Court Warrant will it not ?

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#13 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Pote Snitkin » 15 Jun 2017 20:20

Not as far as I know - arranging to view the warrant seems to be enough. If the police ever attend, they'll always side with the bailiff.

It will be from the Magistrates as it is a criminal fine. County Courts deal with civil matters. What date is on the notice of enforcement from the bailiffs, and what date does it give to pay by?
It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority. - Benjamin Franklin

On 22/2/17, Peterbard said "taking control of goods and selling them does not actually mean taking control of goods and selling them." Discuss.

Justin1971
Posts: 8
Joined: 15 Jun 2017 17:10
Location: Wigan

#14 Re: Marston - Mum Refusing Pay Magistrates Fine

Post by Justin1971 » 15 Jun 2017 20:34

Pote Snitkin wrote:
15 Jun 2017 20:20
It will be from the Magistrates as it is a criminal fine. County Courts deal with civil matters. What date is on the notice of enforcement from the bailiffs, and what date does it give to pay by?
Two notices
one from 12th June 2017 on A4 red ink saying FINAL NOTICE etc
other from yesterday 14th June 2017 red ink saying 'NOTICE OF INTENTION TO ENTER & SEARCH ..'

NEITHER has a pay by date !

As to who issues I give you Magistrates Court Act 1980 s.87

87
Enforcement of payment of fines by High Court and county court.
(1)
Subject to the provisions of subsection (2) below, payment of a sum adjudged to be paid by a conviction of a magistrates’ court may be enforced by the High Court or a county court (otherwise than by issue of a writ of fieri facias or other process against goods or by imprisonment or attachment of earnings) as if the sum were due to the [F1 designated officer for] the magistrates’ court in pursuance of a judgment or order of the High Court or county court, as the case may be.
[F2 (1A)
For the purposes of taking the step mentioned in paragraph 38(1)(e) of Schedule 5 to the Courts Act 2003, the reference in subsection (1) above to “the designated officer for the magistrates' court” shall be construed as a reference to the fines officer.]
F3 (2)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
F4(2A)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
(3)
The [F5 designated officer for the magistrates' court] shall not take proceedings by virtue of subsection (1) above to recover any sum adjudged to be paid by a conviction of the court from any person unless [F6 there has been an inquiry under section 82 above into that person’s means and he appeared to the court to have sufficient means to pay the sum forthwith.]
[F7(3A)
The fines officer shall not, for the purposes of taking the step mentioned in paragraph 38(1)(e) of Schedule 5 to the Courts Act 2003, take proceedings by virtue of subsection (1) above to recover from any person a sum mentioned in paragraph 1 of that Schedule, unless the fines officer has made an inquiry into that person's means and he appeared to the fines officer to have sufficient means to pay the sum forthwith.]
(4)
F8. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

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