Marston group magistrates court fine

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jay19903562
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#1 Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 16 Jul 2017 22:29

Hi there just looking for a little advice on behalf of an elder neighbour who I look out for .

Last thursday (13th Jul) I was getting ready for work in the afternoon (I work shifts as an AA patrolman) when I was disturbed by some commotion and banging outside . Anyway when I looked it was a man dressed in black with a bodycam and wearing what looked like a stab vest knocking quite furiously at one of my neighbours . The gentleman at the address is someone I kind of look out for as he is in his late 50's but suffers from mental health issues as well as some physical health conditions , his son does visit fairly frequently and I(and my partner) get on with them so I always keep an eye out for him and help him with shopping or anything else he needs . Kind of like a carer but I dont claim any allowances or anything for such . Anyway I knew he was out at the Dr's as I had been talking to his son an hour or so previous and I needed to shower and change for work so I decided to leave it . My mantra is always if it is important they will call back .

Anyway I thought nothing of it and had a fairly hectic shift on Thursday night ended up back 2 hours late so wasn't up until mid afternoon on Friday . When I called in around 5pm to check on my neighbour and see if he wanted any food bringing from the supermarket he seemed in a little panic . Knowing his conditions and how he is I eventually got out of him that he had received a visit from a bailiff . This obviously jogged my memory to the Thursday and it all become apparent what had happened .

Anyway I decided to ask him what it was about and what paperwork he had so he pulled it all out . My understanding that he had been fined in the magistrates court for a parking offence . The fine amount was £60 , plus £20 victim sur and £30 costs making a total of £110 .

So he had a notice of fine and collection order from the court dating back to mid march . This was for the £110 mentioned above . The order stated that he was to pay the fine by late april .

He then had a "further steps notice" from the date after the fine was due . This stated the different steps the court would take to enforce the fine . The man currently has no income as he is waiting on a benefits tribunal date for an appeal . Currently he is living off small savings he has and assistance from his son .

The only other paperwork he had apart from documents relating to the original case was a piece of paper the bailiff had posted . It was from a company called marston group . It was titled "removal notice" It basically detailed the date and time of the visit . and contact details for the bailiff himself . It was stamped with a thing at the top that said "Be aware a locksmith maybe used " It then went on to state that the amount owed was £420 which represents bailiff fees of £310 above the mags fine . It states that "if this amount is not paid in full ,immediately ,a further call will be made ,without notice, to take control of goods and potentially remove for sale by public auction"

My neighbour also informs me that he has rung and spoken the bailiff using the number on the form . He explained to the bailiff that he had no chance of paying that and asked for a payment plan to be set up to clear the amount progressively . His account of what the bailiff said is not very detailed as he could not fully remember what was said . But he states that the bailiff informed him that if the amount is not paid in full by tuesday he will return . My neighbour then told him that he does not have many goods worth taking . Maybe a TV and Couch and a few bookcases (to be honest this isnt really far off the truth) The bailiff informed him that he could take everything from the property . The man stated that some stuff in one of the rooms was being stored for his son which the bailiff said he could take too .

Now the first thing I did was spoke to my neighbours son who was understandably annoyed about the threats issued to his unwell father . I managed to calm him down and reassured him that nobody would enter whilst I was there

I previously began training to be a voluntary advisor for the CAB however ill health meant I had to withdraw from this . But I remember a little bit .I understand that in order to actually force entry to domestic property any bailiff will need a warrant from the court as well as permission from a magistrate/judge . So I thought the best thing would be to pay the court fine , my understanding is that this then ends the force of any warrant that the bailiff might have from the court .Any bailiff fees then become a matter for the bailiff company to take up with the magistrates court as the defendant is not liable for those or party to the agreements with the courts

I also understand that is is unlikely that the bailiff has a warrant because they would have already been round with a locksmith to take control of goods ?

The first thing I did was ask the Son if there was any chance of getting the money together to pay the court fine alone the £110 . He informed me he had a few weeks till payday but could stump up about £60 , the neighbour had some and i chipped in the rest so between us we cobbled together the money to pay the court fine and paid it online on Saturday morning he now has the receipts from this . The neighbour has informed me that he will ring the bailiff back tomorrow afternoon to let him know that the fine has been paid to the court directly . I have advised him to expect the bailiff to still attempt to harass him into paying their fees but to stand firm as they have no chance of forcing entry to the property over their fees alone . The magistrate will not give them permission now that the fine has been paid .

Is there any way that the bailiff could come back and force entry to this property now ? Id hate to be wrong because I reassured him that the bailiff has no further rights to force entry .It sounds right to me but It was around 2009 when I started training as a CAB advisor and I know that the law could have changed since then

Another question is would the bailiff have to cease any further action owing to the mans vulnerable state ? He suffers from a catalogue of mental health conditions and really cannot leave the house unaccompanied . He never goes out and has severe depression . He never has any visitors apart from my partner and myself (and obviously his own son) He even refuses to answer the door to cold callers or meter readers . There are even times when he wont want the company of myself or my partner .

A further question is what would the process be for me to be able to speak to Marston group and the bailiff on his behalf ? Would I be okay with my neighbours permission to call the bailiff and discuss it with him ? Or what if bailiffs come knocking whilst I was in , would I have any rights to speak to them and explain that he is vulnerable and has paid the court fine ?

Also I was under the belief that bailiffs had to provide a notice before they first visited and give 7 clear days notice of their intention to take collection action . The man is adamant that he has not received such . It seems nonsense to me that Marston can just turn up unannounced and charge something like £215 for this . They have given no chance to avoid these fees . That being said I suppose paying the fine as ordered by the court could avoid all of this . Which was my first statement about the situation .

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Schedule 12
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#2 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 17 Jul 2017 12:13

jay19903562 wrote:
16 Jul 2017 22:29


The only other paperwork he had apart from documents relating to the original case was a piece of paper the bailiff had posted . It was from a company called marston group . It was titled "removal notice" It basically detailed the date and time of the visit .

Did you get a document called a Notice of Enforcement? It looks like this -- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014 ... edule/made

If you didn't get one then everything that follows fails unless the bailiff can show that he recorded the time the notice was given. If it was given by post then a proof of posting which gives the time is sufficient evidence. Otherwise, the bailiff fails on paragraph 7.3 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, which states:

  • (3)The enforcement agent must keep a record of the time when the notice is given.





and contact details for the bailiff himself . It was stamped with a thing at the top that said "Be aware a locksmith maybe used "
"locksmith" is bailiff terminology to enter using reasonable force. The law does not provide for private homes to broken into by a locksmith interfering with the normal operation of locks.

Marston has broken into homes, but it results in months of litigation which makes this policy commercially untenable. The net result is paying out thousands in damages and having to pay their own barristers defending all the claims.


It then went on to state that the amount owed was £420 which represents bailiff fees of £310 above the mags fine . It states that "if this amount is not paid in full ,immediately ,a further call will be made ,without notice, to take control of goods and potentially remove for sale by public auction"

My neighbour also informs me that he has rung and spoken the bailiff using the number on the form .
How did your neighbour get involved in this?




He explained to the bailiff that he had no chance of paying that and asked for a payment plan to be set up to clear the amount progressively . His account of what the bailiff said is not very detailed as he could not fully remember what was said . But he states that the bailiff informed him that if the amount is not paid in full by tuesday he will return . My neighbour then told him that he does not have many goods worth taking . Maybe a TV and Couch and a few bookcases (to be honest this isnt really far off the truth) The bailiff informed him that he could take everything from the property .

It's all small-talk. Bailiffs are only interested in their fee above all else. They don't want to be stuck with a van load of nick-nacks. Throwing it all away creates a big liability especially if the bailiff doesn't properly inventorise it.



The man stated that some stuff in one of the rooms was being stored for his son which the bailiff said he could take too .
That is against the law. Paragraph 10 of Schedule 12 says:

  • 10An enforcement agent may take control of goods only if they are goods of the debtor.


The bailiff would be liable for the replacement cost of everything.




Now the first thing I did was spoke to my neighbours son who was understandably annoyed about the threats issued to his unwell father . I managed to calm him down and reassured him that nobody would enter whilst I was there

Bailiffs cannot enter when a vulnerable person is home alone.






I previously began training to be a voluntary advisor for the CAB however ill health meant I had to withdraw from this . But I remember a little bit
Citizens advice train their agents to an agenda, which is not necessarily what the law says. They emphasise on paying the debt come what may - even if the money is not owed and no compliance checks are made. There is an assumption the enforcement is lawful even when it is obviously not.

They are more interested in gathering statistics.



.I understand that in order to actually force entry to domestic property any bailiff will need a warrant from the court as well as permission from a magistrate/judge .
Permission is required.

Several years ago, a certain individual who claimed to work for Citizens Advice created the famous the dial-a-magistrate myth. It went something along the lines a bailiff stopped by a locked door, can whip out his mobile and call a magistrate and get a warrant to break entry on the spot.

It came as no surprise the individual worked on the side of the bailiff companies.


So I thought the best thing would be to pay the court fine , my understanding is that this then ends the force of any warrant that the bailiff might have from the court

It ends the enforcement power under paragraph 6(3) of Schedule 12, but it won't end the bailiff who is out of pocket his £90 commission he only earns if he collects the £310 fees as well as the fine. It's a question of how much risk the bailiff chooses to take.

Gamble and he could end up with months of litigation to defend and hanging over his head, all for the sake of £90.

.Any bailiff fees then become a matter for the bailiff company to take up with the magistrates court

The magistrate won't do anything. The matter is closed as far as the law and HM Court service is concerned. It's an angry bailiff who wants his fee and it's a question of how much risk he wants to take by threatening you with a 'locksmith' and whether that backfires on him.
as the defendant is not liable for those or party to the agreements with the courts
The law says the bailiff may recover the fees from the 'proceeds of enforcement'. There is a dispute over what 'proceeds of enforcement' actually means.

Some pundits claim it is money paid in discharge of the warrant.

I say it is the proceeds of the sale of goods taken and sold to pay the debt. My reasoning is "enforcement" is defined in section 62 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.




I also understand that is is unlikely that the bailiff has a warrant because they would have already been round with a locksmith to take control of goods ?

Its very nerve wracking for abailiff to commit himself to threaten you with a locksmith. If he is caught on cameras, he could ends up like this guy did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBRbXOoYpFM


The first thing I did was ask the Son if there was any chance of getting the money together to pay the court fine alone the £110 . He informed me he had a few weeks till payday but could stump up about £60 , the neighbour had some and i chipped in the rest so between us we cobbled together the money to pay the court fine and paid it online on Saturday morning he now has the receipts from this . The neighbour has informed me that he will ring the bailiff back tomorrow afternoon to let him know that the fine has been paid to the court directly . I have advised him to expect the bailiff to still attempt to harass him into paying their fees but to stand firm as they have no chance of forcing entry to the property over their fees alone . The magistrate will not give them permission now that the fine has been paid .

Is there any way that the bailiff could come back and force entry to this property now ?

While the fine is unpaid, the enforcement power is live. You either got to pay it, or apply to stop the power. Run this checklist: http://beatthebailiffs.org/magistrates- ... liffs.html and see if you have any grounds.



Id hate to be wrong because I reassured him that the bailiff has no further rights to force entry .It sounds right to me but It was around 2009 when I started training as a CAB advisor and I know that the law could have changed since then
Very significantly. In favour of debtors and make the rules much clearer, but there is still some fine-tuning needed. That is for another discussion.



Another question is would the bailiff have to cease any further action owing to the mans vulnerable state ?

Being vulnerable doesn't give exemption from enforcement. The law only says that is the vulknerable person is alone, the bailiff may not take control of goods. The law also says the bailiff may not recover fees from vulnerbale people.



He suffers from a catalogue of mental health conditions and really cannot leave the house unaccompanied .
Get his doctor to complete a MALG evidence form, and give copies to the sentencing court and ask they comply with the law. If they don't, then he can sue the Secretary of State for breach of enforcement regulations.



He never goes out and has severe depression . He never has any visitors apart from my partner and myself (and obviously his own son) He even refuses to answer the door to cold callers or meter readers .

The bailiff wont get very far then.







There are even times when he wont want the company of myself or my partner .

A further question is what would the process be for me to be able to speak to Marston group
Don't think of going here! The bailiff will mess you about. You need to be a trained expert on dealing with confrontational situations with bailiffs. It's a skill very people have. You have to be calm cool collective and be able to record the situation discreetly and capture the bailiff breaking the law of giving a false representation as to his powers.

and the bailiff on his behalf ? Would I be okay with my neighbours permission to call the bailiff and discuss it with him ?
The bailiff will say "data protection act". You need to be highly skilled at dealing with obstreporative bailiffs and be capable of recalling it all at court later.


Or what if bailiffs come knocking whilst I was in , would I have any rights to speak to them and explain that he is vulnerable and has paid the court fine ?
I think best leave the door locked shut, and talk though a window and record evberything using a mobile phone. He is less likely to misbehave when he knows he is on record.


Also I was under the belief that bailiffs had to provide a notice before they first visited and give 7 clear days notice of their intention to take collection action .
Correct: Here is the legal position: http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/TC ... tion6.html




The man is adamant that he has not received such . It seems nonsense to me that Marston can just turn up unannounced and charge something like £215 for this .
They can't but bailiffs don't send notices because they stand to gain fiunancially by ambushing debtors with high fees. Otherwise debtors pay the debt on receipt of the notice and the bailiffs fee is a big fat zero!



They have given no chance to avoid these fees . That being said I suppose paying the fine as ordered by the court could avoid all of this. Which was my first statement about the situation .
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jay19903562
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#3 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 17 Jul 2017 14:11

Just to clarify I am not the one that the magistrates court has fined it is my neighbour . I am asking advice on his behalf as he is vulnerable and I look out for him .
Schedule 12 wrote:
17 Jul 2017 12:13



Did you get a document called a Notice of Enforcement? It looks like this -- http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014 ... edule/made

If you didn't get one then everything that follows fails unless the bailiff can show that he recorded the time the notice was given. If it was given by post then a proof of posting which gives the time is sufficient evidence. Otherwise, the bailiff fails on paragraph 7.3 of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007, which states:

  • (3)The enforcement agent must keep a record of the time when the notice is given.

No notice of enforcement has been delivered

Am I right now then in thinking that the bailiff has no further powers to enforce this debt .

At this point the fine has been paid direct to the court . So all that is outstanding is the bailiffs costs



"locksmith" is bailiff terminology to enter using reasonable force. The law does not provide for private homes to broken into by a locksmith interfering with the normal operation of locks.

Marston has broken into homes, but it results in months of litigation which makes this policy commercially untenable. The net result is paying out thousands in damages and having to pay their own barristers defending all the claims.
Understood
How did your neighbour get involved in this?
My neighbour is the one who has been fined and who is being pursued by the bailiffs not me .

I am merely someone who cares for him on behalf of his son . The neighbour being pursued is vulnerable hence why I am trying to deal with this on his behalf .



It's all small-talk. Bailiffs are only interested in their fee above all else. They don't want to be stuck with a van load of nick-nacks. Throwing it all away creates a big liability especially if the bailiff doesn't properly inventorise it.
I understand that the law provides a list of supposed living essentials like beds and fridge freezers that cannot be removed ?

As I said the man seemed adamant that the bailiff has told him he could remove anything he liked from the property .



That is against the law. Paragraph 10 of Schedule 12 says:

  • 10An enforcement agent may take control of goods only if they are goods of the debtor.


The bailiff would be liable for the replacement cost of everything.
That has always been my understanding of bailiffs powers to remove goods .
What proof would the bailiff require that goods in the locked spare bedroom belonged to the mans son and not the man himself ? Could a statutory declaration be provided stating such . Or would a mere letter to give to the bailiff suffice ?


Bailiffs cannot enter when a vulnerable person is home alone.
understood .

What are the chances of them waiting round the corner for the mans son who visits frequently to arrive and ambushing him when he is not alone ?

also how would be best to communicate to the bailiff that the man is vulnerable .

Citizens advice train their agents to an agenda, which is not necessarily what the law says. They emphasise on paying the debt come what may - even if the money is not owed and no compliance checks are made. There is an assumption the enforcement is lawful even when it is obviously not.

They are more interested in gathering statistics.
Agreed . in the time I spent there training I found that the emphasis was first and foremost on establishing the debtors means to pay in full . When sometimes it would have in my view been possible to get the debt collection agencies in civil debts to accept a lesser amount in full and final settlement . Anyway that is another discussion .
Permission is required.
Several years ago, a certain individual who claimed to work for Citizens Advice created the famous the dial-a-magistrate myth. It went something along the lines a bailiff stopped by a locked door, can whip out his mobile and call a magistrate and get a warrant to break entry on the spot.

It came as no surprise the individual worked on the side of the bailiff companies.
Understood . Would the man be advised in advance that the bailiff was considering applying to the court to get the requisite permission ?
It ends the enforcement power under paragraph 6(3) of Schedule 12, but it won't end the bailiff who is out of pocket his £90 commission he only earns if he collects the £310 fees as well as the fine. It's a question of how much risk the bailiff chooses to take.

Gamble and he could end up with months of litigation to defend and hanging over his head, all for the sake of £90.
Understood . So if the court fine has now been paid online the bailiff can continue contact and visiting but has no more enforcement power and is merely attempting to intimidate the man into handing over the fees ?

The magistrate won't do anything. The matter is closed as far as the law and HM Court service is concerned. It's an angry bailiff who wants his fee and it's a question of how much risk he wants to take by threatening you with a 'locksmith' and whether that backfires on him.
Understood . I was under the impression already that the magistrates would not give the bailiff any powers of enforcement over the fees .
The law says the bailiff may recover the fees from the 'proceeds of enforcement'. There is a dispute over what 'proceeds of enforcement' actually means.

Some pundits claim it is money paid in discharge of the warrant.

I say it is the proceeds of the sale of goods taken and sold to pay the debt. My reasoning is "enforcement" is defined in section 62 of the Tribunals Courts and Enforcement Act 2007.
Understood .

Surely if the fine is paid and as you mention above the enforcement action ceases to exist by virtue of the fines being paid there are no more "proceeds of enforcement" for the bailiff to see ?

Its very nerve wracking for abailiff to commit himself to threaten you with a locksmith. If he is caught on cameras, he could ends up like this guy did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBRbXOoYpFM
I see , so that bailiff actually committed a criminal offence . Who would this be reported to , the local police ?

While the fine is unpaid, the enforcement power is live. You either got to pay it, or apply to stop the power. Run this checklist: http://beatthebailiffs.org/magistrates- ... liffs.html and see if you have any grounds.
I did look through some of the documents on this site but was unclear if they only applied to bailiffs collecting civil debts because the bailiff in this case has repeatedly stated that he is collecting a fine from the criminal court and insinuated that this gives him more powers .

I think looking through that again that the man may have been eligible to apply for a means hearing as his benefits have been stopped since the fine was issued by the courts . However me and his Son decided given his vulnerable nature and propensity to forget to make regular payments it was in his best interests to just get the full fine paid straight away .

Just to clarify that we have now paid the full amount of the fine (£110) online at the direct.gov website and have receipts for said payment .




Being vulnerable doesn't give exemption from enforcement. The law only says that is the vulknerable person is alone, the bailiff may not take control of goods. The law also says the bailiff may not recover fees from vulnerbale people.
So just to clarify , because of the mans vulnerable state now that the court fine has been paid , the bailiff cannot pursue for any fees ?



Get his doctor to complete a MALG evidence form, and give copies to the sentencing court and ask they comply with the law. If they don't, then he can sue the Secretary of State for breach of enforcement regulations.

.
I will see to it that he gets the evidence from his Dr when I speak to him later .




Don't think of going here! The bailiff will mess you about. You need to be a trained expert on dealing with confrontational situations with bailiffs. It's a skill very people have. You have to be calm cool collective and be able to record the situation discreetly and capture the bailiff breaking the law of giving a false representation as to his powers.
Understood . If telephone calls did happen to be recorded would the bailiff need to be informed beforehand ?



The bailiff will say "data protection act". You need to be highly skilled at dealing with obstreporative bailiffs and be capable of recalling it all at court later.
I am not particularly interested nor do I think my neighbour is at seeing this in court later on . Assuming the bailiff can now be made to leave the man alone that would be sufficient .


I think best leave the door locked shut, and talk though a window and record evberything using a mobile phone. He is less likely to misbehave when he knows he is on record.
Will take this advice


Correct: Here is the legal position: http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/TC ... tion6.html
That is great thanks


They can't but bailiffs don't send notices because they stand to gain fiunancially by ambushing debtors with high fees. Otherwise debtors pay the debt on receipt of the notice and the bailiffs fee is a big fat zero!
Okay so the bailiffs are not complying with the law in turning up without first sending out a notice . I actually didnt think that bailiffs would be stupid enough to act contrary to law/codes of practice but apparently that £90 commission is enough to get them to ignore their conscience



Thanks for your advice so far , greatly appreciated .

Just to clarify now that the fine has been paid to the court online the bailiff definately has no rights to force entry to the property ? If he did attempt to do so would it be appropriate to call the police on 999 ?

Do we need to provide marston or their bailiff with any proof that the fine has been paid ? Would there be any harm for example in taping such notice to the window of the property clearly for the bailiff to see , or would there be any issue in posting a copy through the letterbox when the bailiff is outside ?

Would it be correct in this case then to state that if the bailiff is ignored when he calls round or rings on the phone it will merely become a matter of time before the bailiff gets bored and realises that this debtor is not going to be good for his fees ? and merely a waste of time ? I appreciate bailiffs will be bailiffs and try various tactics to apply pressure but as long as the bailiffs dont have the power to enter property the man concerned will have no problems ignoring the door as he always does to cold callers anyway .He will also easily be able to ignore phone calls from the bailiffs .

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#4 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 17 Jul 2017 16:02

jay19903562 wrote:
17 Jul 2017 14:11

No notice of enforcement has been delivered

Am I right now then in thinking that the bailiff has no further powers to enforce this debt . [/quote]


It just means the bailiff is liable for everything that follows if an enforcement step is taken without showing evidence that he recorded the time the notice was given to the debtor.




At this point the fine has been paid direct to the court . So all that is outstanding is the bailiffs costs

The enfoprcement power is dead, but you may have an angry bailiff. You must get everything on video, tell him the amount outstanding had been paid and ask him to quietly leave.



Keep that camera on him until he is away from your property.




My neighbour is the one who has been fined and who is being pursued by the bailiffs not me .

I am merely someone who cares for him on behalf of his son . The neighbour being pursued is vulnerable hence why I am trying to deal with this on his behalf .
I follow you now.

The bailiff cannot recover fees from vulnerable people in any case.



Regulation 12 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 states;
  • Recovery of fees from vulnerable debtors
  • 12. Where the debtor is a vulnerable person, the fee or fees due for the enforcement stage (or, where regulation 6 applies, the first, or first and second, enforcement stages as appropriate) and any disbursements related to that stage (or stages) are not recoverable unless the enforcement agent has, before proceeding to remove goods which have been taken into control, given the debtor an adequate opportunity to get assistance and advice in relation to the exercise of the enforcement power.







I understand that the law provides a list of supposed living essentials like beds and fridge freezers that cannot be removed ?
Correct, but chattels are not what bailiffs want.




As I said the man seemed adamant that the bailiff has told him he could remove anything he liked from the property .



Not true. THis gives a list of exempt goods: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013 ... ion/4/made



What proof would the bailiff require that goods in the locked spare bedroom belonged to the mans son and not the man himself ? Could a statutory declaration be provided stating such . Or would a mere letter to give to the bailiff suffice ?


Stat dec, but most people don't bother. The owner of the goods makes more money recovering the replacement cost of the goods through the small claims track. They get new for old.

Bailiffs argue it's only worth the amount they were sold, but that argument has already failed at court because the owner didn't want to sell his goods.




What are the chances of them waiting round the corner for the mans son who visits frequently to arrive and ambushing him when he is not alone ?
very unlikely. It's time-consuming. The bailiff rather moves on to another case than loitering.

also how would be best to communicate to the bailiff that the man is vulnerable .
None. Don't do it. Bailiffs have a belief they are medically qualified to determine whether a debtor is a vulnerable person.

Sue for damages if any money is taken. But you must get it on video and sign nothing, make it clear it's under duress. The case becomes toxic for the bailiff because he will have to pay to defend the claim that follows. He has no defence so he will end up swallowing it.





Understood . Would the man be advised in advance that the bailiff was considering applying to the court to get the requisite permission ?
No.

A court manager has already lost her civil service pension fund for giving "permission for a bailiff to break entry". Court employees are not magistrates, and are not insured for giving such advice for a bailiff.




Understood . So if the court fine has now been paid online the bailiff can continue contact and visiting but has no more enforcement power and is merely attempting to intimidate the man into handing over the fees ?
Yes.





Understood .

Surely if the fine is paid and as you mention above the enforcement action ceases to exist by virtue of the fines being paid there are no more "proceeds of enforcement" for the bailiff to see ?


I see , so that bailiff actually committed a criminal offence . Who would this be reported to , the local police ?
Yes, but not using the 101 number. Report it to local police ONLINE and upload all evidence including video and the law supporting your complaint.

For some reason, the police take the complaint much more seriously.



I did look through some of the documents on this site but was unclear if they only applied to bailiffs collecting civil debts because the bailiff in this case has repeatedly stated that he is collecting a fine from the criminal court and insinuated that this gives him more powers .

It's still schedule 12, but he can enter using "reasonable force". Translate that into bailiff terminology they interpret that to be breaking entry.

This is why you must kill the enforcement power first.






Just to clarify that we have now paid the full amount of the fine (£110) online at the direct.gov website and have receipts for said payment .

The enforcement power is dead.







So just to clarify , because of the mans vulnerable state now that the court fine has been paid , the bailiff cannot pursue for any fees ?



Correct. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014 ... on/12/made

And nor can he take control of goods if he is alone: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013 ... on/10/made

Understood . If telephone calls did happen to be recorded would the bailiff need to be informed beforehand ?

No.

It's an exempt cause under section 35(2) of the Data Protection Act 1998







Just to clarify now that the fine has been paid to the court online the bailiff definately has no rights to force entry to the property ? If he did attempt to do so would it be appropriate to call the police on 999 ?

Yes, but continue to record everything. The police have a tendency to come down on the side of the bailiff even if the Officer knows the bailiff is breaking the law.

It gives you another party to sue, the police force, if it all goes awry. Lawyers know police forces have deep pockets to pay out claims.



Do we need to provide marston or their bailiff with any proof that the fine has been paid ?

Yes. It's called a Paragraph 59 Notice. There a template kicking around this forum.

Would there be any harm for example in taping such notice to the window of the property clearly for the bailiff to see , or would there be any issue in posting a copy through the letterbox when the bailiff is outside ?
Give it through the letter box on camera.



Would it be correct in this case then to state that if the bailiff is ignored when he calls round or rings on the phone it will merely become a matter of time before the bailiff gets bored and realises that this debtor is not going to be good for his fees ? [/quote]

Eventually.

How long depends on the bailiff. The bailiff company will always encourage their bailiffs to take risks. They know it the bailiff neck on the line.

Last week a bailiff resigned from Newlyn after being told to clamp a car when he knew it was unlawful in the circumstances to do so.
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#5 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 17 Jul 2017 19:39

Thanks once again for your advice . I have explained to my neighbour that now that the court fine has been paid the bailiff has no power of enforcement so he is to just ignore the bailiff if he knocks . If the bailiff knocks whilst I or his son are inside the property we both intend to speak to the bailiff through an upstairs window to tell him the fine has been paid and that he(the bailiff) is instructed to leave peacefully . Recording all communication with the bailiff .

I will be looking into sending that paragraph 59 notice to the bailiff company Marston tomorrow . Should it be sent by recorded post or email ?

Just one last question really in relation to this lack of enforcement notice before the bailiff has visited . Is it worth sending a letter to Marston informing them that no such notice has been received prior to their bailiff visiting thus making any further action void ?

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#6 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 17 Jul 2017 21:12

jay19903562 wrote:
17 Jul 2017 19:39



I will be looking into sending that paragraph 59 notice to the bailiff company Marston tomorrow . Should it be sent by recorded post or email ?
By ordinary 2nd class post and by email as it says on the template.

Just one last question really in relation to this lack of enforcement notice before the bailiff has visited . Is it worth sending a letter to Marston informing them that no such notice has been received prior to their bailiff visiting thus making any further action void ?
No.

Just put the bailiff on strict proof he recorded the time the notice was given. Ask for the date stamped ptoof of posting.

Under para 7.3 of Schedule 12, the bailiff has to prove.
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#7 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 19 Jul 2017 12:30

Just an update .

My neighbor got a letter yesterday about the fine he paid online . The letter is from the courts regional payment processing team on Swindon . The general theme of the letter was that the fine has been forwarded to the enforcement agent .

Correct me if im wrong but how do they have the right to do that . Surely the fine is paid that is all the courts care about . Why do they care about the profits of Marston ?

Secondly the bailiff has been texting and ringing today starting yesterday afternoon and continuing today . I don't think he has been to visit again yet but my neighbor was at the hospital for s large part of yesterday so might have missed him

My neighbor is still taking a policy of no contact not answering his phone or replying to texts . Of the bailiff calls round in person all he intends to do it pass a letter we sent to Marston informing them the fine was paid online

Just to clear up and confirm even after yesterday's letter about Marston being passed the fine by the courts the bailiff still cannot force entry ?

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#8 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Pote Snitkin » 19 Jul 2017 12:44

It'll be a template letter we've seen a thousand times - no doubt it mentions the Hereford case, withdrawal of warrants, blah blah blah. There is no legal compulsion on HMCTS to forward direct payments to the bailiffs - they rely on a private contract between themselves that the debtor is not bound by.
You'll probably still get an irate bailiff trying to get his fees - if you do, post back here.
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#9 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 19 Jul 2017 14:19

This is the Hereford Template given by Court Service when a fine is paid into court.

http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/he ... etter.html
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#10 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 19 Jul 2017 16:09

So if the money has been passed to marston that is irrelevant as far as my neighbour is concerned .

The bailiffs powers under the warrant cease to exist . So he still cannot turn up with a locksmith and break in ?


My neighbour thinks he has found a notice of enforcement in some post from a few weeks backs that he was sorting through . Im guessing maybe he opened it but did not understand the importance . Im going round later on to have a look at the document ? Would this change anything if a notice of enforcement had been given a few weeks ago ?

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#11 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 19 Jul 2017 18:30

Once the enforcement power has ended, it cannot be revived because an employee at court service gives public money to a company.

The notice doesn't change anything as far as the debtor is concerned. There is no enforcement power.

You only need to contact me if the bailiff takes an enforcement step and I can give you a solicitor and do something about it.

For now, the debtor must give a paragraph 59 notice, so for the avoidance of doubt, he knows the amount outstanding has been paid. Without this, the bailiff is not liable and will be let off scot-free.
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#12 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 19 Jul 2017 18:42

Just got back from seeing the notice of enforcement which nowhere mentions marston but has the logo of a bird flying and says swift on it which is confusing . It was issued last month my neighbour meant to show his son but forgot to get round to it . Part of his mental health condition causes him to bury his head in the sand about issues , he was suffering from a seriously nasty wound on his foot which had become infected and he left it that long he had to stay in hospital a few nights that is the kind of behavior he exhibits .

Paragraph 59 notice has now been emailed to Marston and posted recorded delivery . An automatic reply was received to the email stating that if an enforcement agent is allocated then the contents will be shared with them so Im guessing the bailiff knows .

Would it be appropriate now to write the fines officer at the court which actually issued the warrant asking them to now take the warrant back off Marston as the fine has been paid and my neighbour is not liable for the fees of a third party ?

On another note , how would we go about letting Marston now the man is vulnerable . I've had a look at the page on this website about it but it seems to only suggest that the bailiff cannot take enforcement action against vulnerable people when they are alone , and also when they have not been given chance to seek advice . So surely all they would do is give him 2 weeks say to get advice and then ramp the pressure back on ?

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#13 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 19 Jul 2017 19:18

jay19903562 wrote:
19 Jul 2017 18:42
Just got back from seeing the notice of enforcement which nowhere mentions marston but has the logo of a bird flying and says swift on it which is confusing .
Swift is owned by Marston. It's the same modus operandi but operates only in Wales.


It was issued last month my neighbour meant to show his son but forgot to get round to it . Part of his mental health condition causes him to bury his head in the sand about issues , he was suffering from a seriously nasty wound on his foot which had become infected and he left it that long he had to stay in hospital a few nights that is the kind of behavior he exhibits .

Mental health is dificult to prove to bailiffs. Have your doctor complete a MALG evidence form, and issue copy to the sentencing court asking they comply with 'legislation concerning vulnerable debtors'.



Paragraph 59 notice has now been emailed to Marston and posted recorded delivery . An automatic reply was received to the email stating that if an enforcement agent is allocated then the contents will be shared with them so Im guessing the bailiff knows .
Keep the autoresponder. It proves safe receipt of the notice.



Would it be appropriate now to write the fines officer at the court which actually issued the warrant asking them to now take the warrant back off Marston as the fine has been paid and my neighbour is not liable for the fees of a third party ?

No. they will mess you about by giving a Hereford Template letter: http://www.dealingwithbailiffs.co.uk/he ... etter.html



On another note , how would we go about letting Marston now the man is vulnerable . I've had a look at the page on this website about it but it seems to only suggest that the bailiff cannot take enforcement action against vulnerable people when they are alone , and also when they have not been given chance to seek advice . So surely all they would do is give him 2 weeks say to get advice and then ramp the pressure back on ?
It also means the bailiff cannot recover fees from vulnerable people. Regulation 12 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.



The bailiff knows he will never get his commission and will quickly move on.
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#14 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 19 Jul 2017 19:55

Schedule 12 wrote:
19 Jul 2017 19:18
It also means the bailiff cannot recover fees from vulnerable people. Regulation 12 of the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014.
Im confused here , just looked at what Regulation 12 says and it says

"Recovery of fees from vulnerable debtors

12. Where the debtor is a vulnerable person, the fee or fees due for the enforcement stage (or, where regulation 6 applies, the first, or first and second, enforcement stages as appropriate) and any disbursements related to that stage (or stages) are not recoverable unless the enforcement agent has, before proceeding to remove goods which have been taken into control, given the debtor an adequate opportunity to get assistance and advice in relation to the exercise of the enforcement power. "

Surely that means that as long as the bailiff has given my neighbour a chance to seek advice he can take enforcement action ?

So basically if we say to the bailiff he is vulnerable as long as the bailiff gives him a few weeks to seek that advice then they can come back then and take enforcement action ?

On another note in terms of evidence of vulnerability ,ive just looked at the malg form , but my neighbour currently has medical references from his Dr in relation to updating his benefits claim ? would these be suitable ?

Schedule 12 wrote:
19 Jul 2017 19:18
The bailiff knows he will never get his commission and will quickly move on.
I sincerely hope so . My neighbour doesn't have the money to get his locks fixed or pay up the fees demanded by the bailiff if he decides he wants to take enforcement action .

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#15 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 19 Jul 2017 20:05

jay19903562 wrote:
19 Jul 2017 19:55


"Recovery of fees from vulnerable debtors

12. Where the debtor is a vulnerable person, the fee or fees due for the enforcement stage (or, where regulation 6 applies, the first, or first and second, enforcement stages as appropriate) and any disbursements related to that stage (or stages) are not recoverable unless the enforcement agent has, before proceeding to remove goods which have been taken into control, given the debtor an adequate opportunity to get assistance and advice in relation to the exercise of the enforcement power. "

Surely that means that as long as the bailiff has given my neighbour a chance to seek advice he can take enforcement action ?

So basically if we say to the bailiff he is vulnerable as long as the bailiff gives him a few weeks to seek that advice then they can come back then and take enforcement action ?

That is what it says, but read on to Paragraph 16 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 (Published by the Ministry of Justice) states;

  • Should a debtor be identified as vulnerable, creditors should be prepared to take control of the case, at any time, if necessary.


Using these two rules, it means enforcement is postponed indefinitely, but in any case, no enforcement stage fee or costs are recoverable, and that is designed to stop the bailiff earning a commission by pestering a vulnerable people.

The bailiff has no choice but move on.



On another note in terms of evidence of vulnerability ,ive just looked at the malg form , but my neighbour currently has medical references from his Dr in relation to updating his benefits claim ? would these be suitable ?
Yes it would.

A bailiff is not medically qualified to diagnose a debtor to the contrary.
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#16 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 19 Jul 2017 20:28

Schedule 12 wrote:
19 Jul 2017 20:05
jay19903562 wrote:
19 Jul 2017 19:55


"Recovery of fees from vulnerable debtors

12. Where the debtor is a vulnerable person, the fee or fees due for the enforcement stage (or, where regulation 6 applies, the first, or first and second, enforcement stages as appropriate) and any disbursements related to that stage (or stages) are not recoverable unless the enforcement agent has, before proceeding to remove goods which have been taken into control, given the debtor an adequate opportunity to get assistance and advice in relation to the exercise of the enforcement power. "

Surely that means that as long as the bailiff has given my neighbour a chance to seek advice he can take enforcement action ?

So basically if we say to the bailiff he is vulnerable as long as the bailiff gives him a few weeks to seek that advice then they can come back then and take enforcement action ?

That is what it says, but read on to Paragraph 16 of the Taking Control of Goods: National Standards 2014 (Published by the Ministry of Justice) states;

  • Should a debtor be identified as vulnerable, creditors should be prepared to take control of the case, at any time, if necessary.


Using these two rules, it means enforcement is postponed indefinitely, but in any case, no enforcement stage fee or costs are recoverable, and that is designed to stop the bailiff earning a commission by pestering a vulnerable people.

The bailiff has no choice but move on.



On another note in terms of evidence of vulnerability ,ive just looked at the malg form , but my neighbour currently has medical references from his Dr in relation to updating his benefits claim ? would these be suitable ?
Yes it would.

A bailiff is not medically qualified to diagnose a debtor to the contrary.
That clarifies the position somewhat in terms of not being able to claim fees from vulnerable people thanks .

As the fine has now been paid direct to the court anyhow there is nothing for the creditor to take back control of surely ?

But what about the fact that the court are now also claiming that they have given the fine to the enforcement agent to allocate as per guidelines (or words to that effect) Do I need to inform the court to get the money back from the agent ?

Could the courts now claim because they dont have the money any longer the fine is once again unpaid ?

Sorry for the questions , I am just trying to ensure that there is no chance that a bailiff could use a locksmith to gain entry to my neighbours house because there is no telling how my neighbour would react but I seriously doubt it will make his health any better than it is .

Would a letter like something below be sufficient to inform Marston , do the court also need informing ?

To Whom it may concern

RE: name of man
Reference number :

I am writing in relation to the enforcement action currently being taken against the above named individual

I am writing to inform you that (Name) is to be considered vulnerably by virtue of suffering from mental health conditions thus meaning that according to regulation 12 of The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 no enforcement stage fee or costs are recoverable from this man

Please find attached a report from (names ) general practitioner confirming the conditions that (Name) suffers from and the effects that this has on his day to day life .

I ask that the warrant issued in relation to this named individual is now returned to the court fines office from which is was issued as non enforceable .

I trust that this clarifies the position in relation this matter and should any further enforcement action be taken legal support will be sought to bring action against (named enforcement officer)


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#17 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Edd » 19 Jul 2017 22:28

Hounded again for what? Diddly squat? Nothing better to do than pick on potentially vulnerable people?

All over such trivial sums of money that suddenly fees turn it into something a bit more substantial and at best questionable. An agent armed with a cam comes bullying at your door, to get paid? Throwing his her weight about to get results?

Get away........

This is the 21st Century. Money changing hands between private plcs? You could not make it up. I guess if half of these miscreants were on the receiving end they'd be first to speak up. But then it is easier to turn a blind eye to evil and do nothing. That's what bad people do.

Ps. Tell them to shove it, take case to court and question the shambles....sorry, system in first place. It doesn't even belong in the Stone Age my friend......

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#18 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 19 Jul 2017 22:39

jay19903562 wrote:
19 Jul 2017 20:28



But what about the fact that the court are now also claiming that they have given the fine to the enforcement agent to allocate as per guidelines (or words to that effect) Do I need to inform the court to get the money back from the agent ?
No need.

You paid your fine as ordered by the court. What Court Service does with the money is not your problem.


Could the courts now claim because they dont have the money any longer the fine is once again unpaid ?
No. The law says Court Service is under a duty to give a receipt.

That is evidence the fine is paid.

Parliament created CPR52.3 to protect the public from miscreants trying to say a fine is unpaid when it is not.




Sorry for the questions , I am just trying to ensure that there is no chance that a bailiff could use a locksmith to gain entry to my neighbours house because there is no telling how my neighbour would react but I seriously doubt it will make his health any better than it is .

Would a letter like something below be sufficient to inform Marston , do the court also need informing ?
Use this

NAME
ADDRESS


The Director
BAILIFF COMPANY
ADDRESS 1
ADDRESS 2
POSTCODE

BY POST AND BY EMAIL AND BY TEXT MESSAGE
complaints@collectica.co.uk

CC: Mr. BAILIFF by text message on 07000 000000

DATE

Dear Sir/Madam,

Re:YOUR NAME THEIR REF:

Notice under paragraph 59(2) of Schedule 12 of the Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Act 2007 (the schedule)

This is notice to all persons whom the enforcement power is conferred (including directors of any enforcement company), regarding the same warrant or writ.

The amount outstanding is paid and the enforcement power ceased to have effect under Paragraph 6(3)(a) of the schedule. The amount outstanding is defined in provision 50(3) of the schedule.

Enforcement agents may not take control of goods or break entry regarding unpaid fees.

The creditor and every person whom the enforcement power is conferred (including directors of any enforcement company) are jointly and severally at risk from an action brought under Paragraph 66 for any breach of the schedule

Yours faithfully,


YOUR NAME
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#19 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 20 Jul 2017 23:02

The bailiff has been round knocking again today .Also left a "final notice"

Also sent a text to my neighbours son as he rung him the first day the bailiff left a notice .

The text says something along the lines that the primary route will now be to come with a locksmith to gain entry , also mentions that the police will possibly be in attendance .

In other news we went round the house today hypothesising about what the bailiff would take . To be honest as my neighbour is planning on down sizing soon anyway there is not a great deal of furniture . The main furniture is a massive couch in the living room . I believe that when it was brought into the house it was very difficult to get in and resulted in some damage to the paintwork in the entrance room to the house . There is the usual kitchen appliances , a few sideboards which are not very valuable . In one of the bedrooms is a massive wardrobe that was built up in the room itself so I dont know if it could be removed . A very old TV and radio . Basically we cannot really see £400 worth of stuff being taken . Am I right in thinking every individual book , cd , tape ,dvd or vhs would have to be listed on any inventory ? In which case it could take the bailiff some time

Just another note , my neighbours wife is in hospital at the moment but she usually lives at the address and probably contributed just as much to the value of most of the goods in the house . How does taking goods under co ownership work ? Some of the furniture is very old so surely the bailiff cannot contest co ownership on the grounds that no receipt is available

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#20 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 20 Jul 2017 23:09

Get it all on video, and contact me if a bailiff does anything stupid. We can do something about it.

Bailiffs aren't interested in furniture and nick-knacks. They only break the lock to threaten you. We can bring proceedings that relieve the bailiff and his firm more money than its worth.

You must

  • 1. get it on video.
    2. have the receipt from HM court service proving the amount outstanding is paid
    3. have given a Paragraph 59 Notice.
If one or more of these is missing, your claim for damages will fail.
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#21 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by jay19903562 » 21 Jul 2017 15:44

Okay understood .

Bailiff been round again today , left another "final notice" he didnt really hang around though , I was in this time . The bailiff came around 12noon , knocked a few times , banged on the window a bit . Left his notice and went on his way .

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#22 Re: Marston group magistrates court fine

Post by Schedule 12 » 21 Jul 2017 15:54

He'll move on eventually. Capture everything on video and he will be less inclined to do anything stupid.

Marston head office will pressure him to persist, even telling him to threaten him. One ex bailiff who quit Marston because of this was quite revealing.
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