Transport for London returning direct payment

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Louise2311
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Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Louise2311 » 20 Feb 2018 13:58

Hey guys,

Wondering if anyone has any advice.
I had a TFL ticket which went to court and eventually cam to £203.00 Very quickly baillif's turned up at my house and left a letter with some ridiculous fees attached. I ignored it and sent a postal order directly to TFL via recorded delivery for the the £203.00 debt I owed them. I knew it wasn't a good idea to start paying money to the baillifs so I thoght paying TFL was the best option.

Anyway TFL have returned the money now saying that the debt has been referred to Enforcement officers and I'm not sure what to do?

I have bought the letter templates and was going to send the debt has been paid letter to the baillifs but as TFL have returned the money it actually hasn't been paid now

Do I re-send the postal order or just pay the baillifs?

Any advice would be hugely appreciated.

Many Thanks

Louise

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Schedule 12
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Schedule 12 » 20 Feb 2018 15:49

Once you have sent the payment then your liability is discharged and the enforcement power ends under paragraph 6(3) of Schedule 12 of the Trinbunals Courts and Enforcement Act 207.

Refunding you the money does not revive the warrant. There is one snag. the enforcement agent is not liable for enforcement action taken against you - unless he has been given Notice. Paragraph 59 of Schedule 12 of the TCEA 2007.

This means that when you paid the money to TFL, you must give the enforcement agent notice the "amount outstanding" has been paid. Hence this notice is called a "Paragraph 59 Notice".
I am a paralegal working for solicitors bringing proceedings against bailiffs for non-compliant enforcement action.

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Louise2311
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Louise2311 » 21 Feb 2018 14:23

Thank you so much for your reply.

I wonder if the way in which I did things makes any difference?

So on the 18th Jan I sent the cheque recorded delivery to TFL with all the details of the debt noted on the Postal Order.

They then returned it on the 08th Feb via recorded delivery. I emailed Marstons, texted the baillif and sent them the "debt paid letter" quoting paragraph 59 of schedule 12 letter yesterday

I'm just wondering if because the cheque had been returned before the letter was sent if it still applies? Obviously they haven't actually been paid because they sent it back.

Any advice on what should I do next?

Many thanks

Louise

Louise2311
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Louise2311 » 21 Feb 2018 15:26

Lastly - after sending the text to the bailiff advising the debt had been paid he text back saying "still be enforcing it until the court says different"
I re-iterated paragraph 59 of schedule 12 and he came back saying "you've not paid until the court of Marstons says so!"
He said when he first came he had a high court writ? Would a high court writ be issued for a TFL parking fine and can they force entry?

Many thanks again - I feel so violated and don't know what to do for the best.

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Schedule 12
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Schedule 12 » 21 Feb 2018 17:19

Do not reply to their text messages.

If an enforcement action is taken, you can sue under provision 66 of Schedule 12 of the TCEA 2007 because of its a breach of paragraph 6(3) of that Schedule.

Bailiffs cannot force entry for parking fines, let alone break entry. The bailiff is only interesting in clamping your car to get you to concede to paying his fees. At that point, you can sue, or you can get an injunction.

It's easy to injunct for clamping a car that is on hire purchase.

Injuncting a bailiff is more difficult if he clamps a car for unpaid fees. Judges are more inclined to dismiss an injunction and the result is an expensive appeal to a circuit judge. District judges have a perceived belief they must assist enforcement agents collecting a public debt even when they are not. Bailiffs fees are not public debts.
I am a paralegal working for solicitors bringing proceedings against bailiffs for non-compliant enforcement action.

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Louise2311
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Louise2311 » 21 Feb 2018 20:40

Are you sure that this is still the case even though TFL have returned my postal order?
I effectively haven’t actually paid it and the baillifs have text me again this evening to say TFL returned my cheque because enforcement action had already started and so the debt is still outstanding?

Many thanks

John The Baptist
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by John The Baptist » 21 Feb 2018 20:59

Louise.

Common sense alone should tell you that it's not that easy.

TFL are working with the bailiff here and are more concerned about his interest than they are yours.

You will not be able to sue anyone and nobody has ever succeeded in suing anyone under these circumstances.

Your only hope of avoiding fees is to front it out and refuse the bailiff permission to enter your home. Eventually he will give up. Even then, he will have details of your car so that is at risk. There is no easy way out of this- if there was, everyone would take that route.

Be careful you don't dig yourself a deeper hole
Dodgeball on committal for council tax being a coercive measure - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Pote Snitkin » 21 Feb 2018 21:05

TfL certainly need to be informed that the bailiff they've hired has clamped an HP car. I'd also advise them that you are aware that there is no forced entry for this type of debt and with the car being on HP there is nothing of value outside to take control of. Ask them to request the warrant is returned or to inform you when the bailiff voluntarily returns the warrant to allow you to pay TfL direct.
Dodgeball on the Criminal Procedure Rules - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss.

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Schedule 12 » 21 Feb 2018 21:26

John The Baptist wrote:
21 Feb 2018 20:59

You will not be able to sue anyone and nobody has ever succeeded in suing anyone under these circumstances.
Yes, they have.
I am a paralegal working for solicitors bringing proceedings against bailiffs for non-compliant enforcement action.

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John The Baptist
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by John The Baptist » 21 Feb 2018 22:05

I knew you were going to say that. Presumably it's one of those top secret cases that only you are privy to?

As opposed to the endless well publicised cases that ended in tears?
Dodgeball on committal for council tax being a coercive measure - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss

Louise2311
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Louise2311 » 23 Feb 2018 05:35

I am not trying to avoid this debt, rather I am keen to pay it but I’m not interested in getting into any agreement with the baillifs.

I am going to re-send the cheque to TFL detailing the baillifs bully tactics...

I’ll keep you guys posted...

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by John The Baptist » 23 Feb 2018 08:17

Louise

Even if TFL kept the cheque, the bailiffs would still come after you for their fees. Sending the cheque will achieve nothing.

If you want to avoid the bailiff fees, you have to sit it out, pay nothing and wait for the bailiff to give in. Even then, your car would be at great risk.


There is no such thing as a "paragraph 59 letter" and paragraph 59 does not mean what the person posting as "Schedule 12" thinks it does either.
Dodgeball on committal for council tax being a coercive measure - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Pote Snitkin » 23 Feb 2018 09:06

If we could see some evidence of bailiffs accepting a "para 59" then I'd feel a lot easier. As I read it, goods have to have been taken into control beforehand.
Dodgeball on the Criminal Procedure Rules - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss.

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Schedule 12 » 23 Feb 2018 09:37

Bailiffs don't need to accept paragraph 59.

It is a notice stating the amount outstanding has been paid.
I am a paralegal working for solicitors bringing proceedings against bailiffs for non-compliant enforcement action.

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John The Baptist
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by John The Baptist » 23 Feb 2018 09:40

But your idea of what "the amount outstanding" is and the law's idea are two different things.
Dodgeball on committal for council tax being a coercive measure - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Pote Snitkin » 23 Feb 2018 09:58

Schedule 12 wrote:
23 Feb 2018 09:37
Bailiffs don't need to accept paragraph 59.

It is a notice stating the amount outstanding has been paid.
But p59 only comes into play if p58 has been met. This says that goods have to have been taken into control first.
Dodgeball on the Criminal Procedure Rules - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss.

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Schedule 12 » 23 Feb 2018 11:55

Correct. When (if) the bailiff takes control of goods, the notice is effected. The debtor can sue for damages.

I know some might disagree, but I would still follow HMCTS official advice, which is:

Enforcement agents must not seek to enforce the recovery of fees where an enforcement power has ceased to be exercisable.
I am a paralegal working for solicitors bringing proceedings against bailiffs for non-compliant enforcement action.

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John The Baptist
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by John The Baptist » 23 Feb 2018 12:11

Schedule 12 wrote:
23 Feb 2018 11:55
Correct. When (if) the bailiff takes control of goods, the notice is effected. The debtor can sue for damages.

I know some might disagree, but I would still follow HMCTS official advice, which is:

Enforcement agents must not seek to enforce the recovery of fees where an enforcement power has ceased to be exercisable.
But Jason - The enforcement power only ceases when the amount outstanding has been paid.

To think or suggest that the MoJ would intentionally intend to provide for debtors not to have to pay bailiff fees if they didn't choose to is ridiculous and childlike at best. Let it go - We've tried it and it's failed. You can't win them all so why not move on to something that you can make a difference with, instead of this stupid pipe dream.

And if you are selling template letters along these lines, you need to take a long hard look at yourself.
Dodgeball on committal for council tax being a coercive measure - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Pote Snitkin » 23 Feb 2018 13:28

Schedule 12 wrote:
23 Feb 2018 11:55
Correct. When (if) the bailiff takes control of goods, the notice is effected. The debtor can sue for damages.
But you push the para 59 route even when no goods have been controlled.
Dodgeball on the Criminal Procedure Rules - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss.

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Schedule 12 » 23 Feb 2018 19:02

It comes into effect if the bailiff takes control of goods.
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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Pote Snitkin » 23 Feb 2018 20:08

But Jason, on this very thread you said the OP needs to send a 'para 59' notice, yet no goods have been taken under control.
Dodgeball on the Criminal Procedure Rules - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss.

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Schedule 12 » 23 Feb 2018 20:56

Yes. The notice comes into effect the moment the bailiff takes control of goods.
I am a paralegal working for solicitors bringing proceedings against bailiffs for non-compliant enforcement action.

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Re: Transport for London returning direct payment

Post by Pote Snitkin » 23 Feb 2018 21:05

But you can't give a 'para 59' unless para 58 has happened. What you're arguing is that the debtor gives a para 59 in anticipation of para 58 happening, or that by giving a para 59 it prevents the EA from using para 58.
Dodgeball on the Criminal Procedure Rules - "FMOTL nonsense". Discuss.

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